Woman sniper on Gallipoli

[curranl]

Hello All,

I don't collect these stories, honestly I don't. But I came across the following in Myles Dungan's Irish Voices from the Great War

"Some of the best Turkish marksmen, as it turned out, were markswomen. 'Among those discovered was a peasant woman - the wife of a Turkish soldier - who lived with her old mother and her child in a little house near the Irish lines' (referring to Suvla). This particular woman was a good shot who specialised in hitting stragglers on the many trails between the front lines and the beaches. having made sure her targets were dead she would then rifle their bodies. When she was finally identified and captured her house was searched. A large quantity of money was found, but more surprising was the discovery of a number of identity discs. Either she was proud of her work or she was getting paid a piecework rate for the job!"

The reference Dungan gives for the story is Michael McDonagh's The Irish at the Front (1916).

So we now have a Mammy sniper, a Granny sniper and a Baby sniper, all in their little cottage between the front line and the beach

She won't go away! Or maybe I just have a thing for a woman with a rifle

Regards,

Liam.

[Tom Morgan]

She won't go away! Or maybe I just have a thing for a woman with a rifle

Regards,

Liam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is for you, then.....

Tom

[Broznitsky]

Phooooarrrr!! This thread is getting erotic . . .

[mcderms]

Errr... it's a bloke?! Found the same pic when looking for an SMLE image - some Norsk nutter with a de-ac!!

[Mat McLachlan]

I wondered how long it would be before someone stumbled across that picture of my sister... I knew it was a mistake posting it on my website.

[yellow]

I wonder what happened to the women you mention? I`ll wager they probably executed her especially if she wasnt wearing a uniform. Even the Turk snipers captured in uniform were given harsh treatment.......I believe the Australians were not at all fond of them.

That is an interesting pic, sadly snipers didnt operate with bayonet fixed. Not only did this throw their aim but presented obvious problems relating to concealment.

But I do realise this post is just for a bit of fun

Steve.

[toofatfortakeoff]

It is interesting to note that women are slightly more ferocious at certain phases of the month-Im not sure whether this betters the aim or not.

[Eceabat]

Sorry guys,

this one is boring. I spoke to two Turkish historians today (25/9) about this issue among others. Both Tuncay Yilmazer and Sahin Akdogan both agree the only references they have ever come across regarding female snipers at Gallipoli were in English language texts.

Frankly, as I have blathered on elsewhere, not only would it be socially and culturally unlikely in Turkey then (or now in fact, a study released two weeks ago said that less than five percent of gun owners in Turkey are women), that there would be women in the front lines but if the was an Ottoman woman sniper and she survived, she might have made for good propaganda.

Cheers

Bill

[T8HANTS]

Hi

Although I wish someone would shoot this one dead, my wife Val has come up with a possible answer.

Could there have been a local woman civilian, who picked up a rifle from some fallen soldier, and had a go as an enraged female defending her little patch. Or just was killed while scavenging.

As a civilian she would not appear on anybody's list of combatents, or if killed, missed by anybody other than her family. It has happened in other wars.

[Eceabat]

I don't think your wife's theory about a civilian picking up a gun is going to fly. First off, it would be unlikely that any Ottoman woman of the time would have the skills to fire a gun effectively enough to be a sniper (and there are questionable stories of a woman being found with numerous Allied dogtags, which would argue that she was an excellent shot.

Secondly, nearly all of the civilians in or near the battlezones has been evacuated prior to the fighting, though some remained in rear area villages and towns such as Maidos (now Eceabat).

Another factor arguing against this regarding reports of a female sniper in the ANZAC area is that there were no villages within a few kilometres of the sector, the nearest being Kocadere, which had been at least partly evacuated at the time. There were a few fishermen's huts and what have you nearby, especially at North Beach but there is a story that the wife of at least one of the fishermen became known for darning socks and handing out food to Turkish troops while living in a rear area village.

Possibly the reports of women snipers was a bit of wishful thinking on the part of the Allied troops, they had been away from female company for a while.

Cheers

Bill

[Muerrisch]

That is an interesting pic, sadly snipers didnt operate with bayonet fixed. Not only did this throw their aim but presented obvious problems relating to concealment.

But I do realise this post is just for a bit of fun

Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Musketry Regs 1914 say that the bayonet when fixed reduces "jump", also that with Mk VI ammuntion the accuracy is not appreciably affected, but a small affect with Mk VII.

Of course, fixing a bayonet is 'not on all fours' with sniping, but accurate fire with bayonet fixed was completely practicable.

Oh, and my wife is a very good shot, but without the bayonet.

[Ozzie]

Not saying that there was a Turkish woman sniper, but just pointing out, that in times of need, throughout the world, women have learned very quickly how to use a gun and use it to good effect.

Cheers

Kim

[truthergw]

Not saying that there was a Turkish woman sniper, but just pointing out, that in times of need, throughout the world, women have learned very quickly how to use a gun  and use it to good effect.

Cheers

Kim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that, when necessary, women have always and everywhere done what was needed. However, according to one of the posts, this lady learned how to snipe and then how to sneak down to her victim, remove his dogtags and make good her getaway. Very impressive. Certainly puts Annie Oakley in her place.

[Ozzie]

[kildaremark]

This letter was in the Kildare Observer newspaper in September 1915 and mentions the alleged female sniper in the last line. Some of the paper is on the internet. This extract is at

http://www.kildare.ie/athyheritage/Kildare...verSept1915.htm

G Ward, British Red Cross Hospital, Giza, Cairo, Egypt, 22-0801915 –

My Dear Mother –

I am sure you are surprised at not having heard from me for so long, but from the day we landed at Gallipoli up to now I haven't had the remotest chance of writing. I can tell you we got a hot reception too when we did land, as we were making a new landing, but the 6th got through with remarkably few casualties. For the next two days we were employed bringing up stores. Then we went into the firing line, and we advanced to far without support, and the Regiment suffered badly, having something like 300 casualties. Jim Robinson and Bob Carter were both wounded. Where the former is now I cannot tell you. I was wounded on Sunday August 15th., when our lot along with the Munsters and "Skins" took a Turkish trench and about 20 prisoners. A piece of shrapnel went right through my knee. Captain Preston was killed just before I was wounded. I arrived at this place yesterday, so it has taken a week to get here. I got some papers from dad (July 14th and 21st) and a letter from Willie and Harry. This is all I have received. They afforded me an interesting afternoon's read in the trenches. For the whole week I was on the Peninsula we could only get water, bully beef and biscuits. Not even a chance of a wash or shave. I had a beard on me past description. The whole of my kit has gone, but I suppose I will get a reissue. It was a bit of hard luck we weren't taken to England. Our chaplain did tell us we were going to Devonport but it was not to be. Probably the boat that I was just late for did go, as we have not heard of her coming here. The Turks are shelling our Red Cross Hospital too. When I was lying with some others awaiting my turn to be taken to the boat a shell landed about 6 - 8 yards behind us and we weren't able to help ourselves. It certainly is a new experience to be under fire but after a while you get used to it. It is very dangerous to knock about alone. The place is simply walking with snipers, and they paint themselves green. I have heard that some female snipers were captured. How true it is I don't know. -

Your affectionate son,

"RONALD"

[Ozzie]

Maybe one of our new Turkish members may be able to shed some light?

Cheers

Kim

[Devils Own]

Hi Everybody

I am sure that you will all say 'oh yeah', 'Jimmy Hill', 'chinny recon' etc. but one of the stories my Grandad told my mother was that they were under constant sniping at ANZAC and when they got hold of the culprit, it was definately a sheila.

Steve

[Bryn]

My Granddad told my mum plenty of stories too, and he may even have believed them all, but that doesn't necessarily make them true.

[Jonathan Saunders]

Maybe one of our new Turkish members may be able to shed some light?

Cheers

Kim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kim,

I cant remember her name but the Turkish lady that presented at the RM Museum Conference on Gallipoli last April dismissed the women sniper theory as a pure fabrication.

Jon

[Simon R]

Martin Peglers new book 'From Out of Nowhere' will be useful here.

[2ndCMR]

1. the Soviets used women snipers in large numbers quite succesfully

2. there were cases in Europe of women 'franc tireurs' in WWII if not WWI.

3. there are plenty of women who can operate a rifle quite succesfully in any country; country women particularly.

4. women have a history of 'combativeness' in many parts of the world, not confined to dissecting prisoners.

5. the woman in question may have had a personal animus, other than plunder and the natural wish to 'repel an invader'

6. I have read of at least one other case where a Turkish sniper was found to have collected the ID disks from his victims

7. scoffing can become habitual

[Devils Own]

My Granddad told my mum plenty of stories too, and he may even have believed them all, but that doesn't necessarily make them true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that, as he saw the person being hauled in, that is a different matter. But as I intimated, please yourself whether you believe it or not. It doesn't make any difference to me.

[truthergw]

1. the Soviets used women snipers in large numbers quite succesfully

2. there were cases in Europe of women 'franc tireurs' in WWII if not WWI.

3. there are plenty of women who can operate a rifle quite succesfully in any country; country women particularly.

4. women have a history of 'combativeness' in many parts of the world, not confined to dissecting prisoners.

5. the woman in question may have had a personal animus, other than plunder and the natural wish to 'repel an invader'

6. I have read of at least one other case where a Turkish sniper was found to have collected the ID disks from his victims

7. scoffing can become habitual

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would be interested in the scenario where a sniper would collect ID discs. Normally, a sniper is killing people at long distance, in a place where they are not otherwise at risk. If a soldier can collect a trophy from your corpse, why snipe? He can just bash your brains out with a blunt object. I am not doubting the veracity of your informant, I'm just curious.

[Bryn]

1. the Soviets used women snipers in large numbers quite succesfully

2. there were cases in Europe of women 'franc tireurs' in WWII if not WWI.

3. there are plenty of women who can operate a rifle quite succesfully in any country; country women particularly.

4. women have a history of 'combativeness' in many parts of the world, not confined to dissecting prisoners.

5. the woman in question may have had a personal animus, other than plunder and the natural wish to 'repel an invader'

6. I have read of at least one other case where a Turkish sniper was found to have collected the ID disks from his victims

7. scoffing can become habitual

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The fact that women MAY be snipers, or that they have been snipers at some times, in some armies, has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether there were women snipers at Gallipoli. Taking each of 2nd CMR's points in turn:

1. The Soviets are / were not Turks at Gallipoli.

2. WW2 was not WW1.

3. The fact that women can operate rifles does not mean there were women snipers at Gallipoli.

4. Women being combative does not mean there were women snipers at Gallipoli.

5. What woman in question? The presence (non-presence) of a woman sniper at Gallipoli is the subject of this discussion, with evidence overwhelmingly against it; it's not an established fact.

6. The fact that another sniper may have collected ID tags does not prove there were women snipers at Gallipoli.

7. Scoffing is sometimes justified, even required.

[Bryn]

I think that, as he saw the person being hauled in, that is a different matter. But as I intimated, please yourself whether you believe it or not. It doesn't make any difference to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe it because this discussion has occurred numbers of times before, always with absolutely no actual evidence produced. No reports, no photos, not so much as a mention by any officer, no article in post-war Returned Services journals, and no Turkish photos or documentation. Kenan Celik, who I would consider one of the leading Turkish authorities on Gallipoli, discounts the idea completely.

I'd be interested, though, in knowing who your grandfather was and what unit he was with; that would tell me where he served at Gallipoli and when.