jdajd Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Hate to ask a stupid question (or 2), but is that Thiepval on the right of the Crucifix? and Is St Pierre Divion off screen and if so approximately where (clockhands will be fine) Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 21 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Egbert - have you seen Jack Sheldon's post? I had originally placed Schwaben virtually on top of Mill Road Cemetery ... I took it from his posts I had to realign it to the 'right' of the picture. From your map (got it too!) and others I've looked at, the solution may be to draw a rectangle (as Swizz says) across the 'high ground'?? Aside from that .. how's it looking for a 'rough guide' to the average punter? More of a point and peek than a hardcore historical document! Thanks very much for chipping in! Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Sorry again. Most of the Schwaben Redoubt was not underground - contrary to popular opinion. Please see the attachment for a description, featured in my book, The German Army on the Somme 1914-1916 which appears next month. The subsidence around Mill Road is due to the fact that there was a large number of dugouts in the German front line trench in this area. If anyone is unhappy with my overlay map, which shows where the German engineers surveyed the Schwaben Redoubt, I am more than happy to post one lifted from the War Diary of the (British) General Staff, dated January 1917 (PRO WO 95/1787), which agrees with the German mapping in every detail - except the names, some of which were anglicised: i.e. Schlueter Graben, becomes Splutter Road etc. Jack The_Schwaben_Redoubt.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 21 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2005 JD - right first time .. I forgot to mark the red dashes as 'Div Boundary' for 32nd Div. SPD is out of camera shot in bottom of picture. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 21 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2005 So how does the latest one look Jack? Getting there? Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Des First of all let me say how much I like your graphics, which really 'lift' the whole story. You still need to shift your positioning a bit. The size is much better, though it should be roughly triangular if you can manage that. You do have that little triangle of wood, which is where the cemetery is on your latest, but the front edge of the Redoubt needs to begin right on the Thiepval-Grandcourt road about 250 metres further on from the cemetery and then run away north west for 500 metres. Give it another go, because your work really brings the scope and depth of the attack to life Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaymen Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Des Superb stuff mate - as usual. All the best Glyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 21 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2005 OK latest - best I can do from perspective and tools available! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Please do not consider my posting as pea-counting; but it's such a wonderful thread that I cannot resist: according to my information (see drawing above) Feste Schwaben is located here: feste.ppt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Here is a panorama pic from the forward edge of Feste Schwaben looking s/w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 21 June , 2005 Share Posted 21 June , 2005 ...and this is my point of reference from where i made the pic: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 21 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 21 June , 2005 Cheers Egbert Jeez - no wonder people would pay a fortune for a contemporary picture of the Redoubt!! Right - where's the archaeologists when you need 'em?? Oi .. Time Team .. get yer geophys and your computer aided design team down 'ere .. fast!! On the other hand .. I could just draw a line and stick an MG graphic on it like the barbs of the wire! It was a bit of a maze after all. IN ALL SERIOUNESS .. all these perspective pics and maps are giving me .. and the average punter .. good value for cyber money. Keep 'em coming. Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 This is a small selection of maps and sketches of the area in and around Schwaben Redoubt from spring 1915 to July 1916. There are dozens of them in the archives in Stuttgart and Munich. This should provide you with a good idea of how this particular field fortification developed over a 16 month period, indicate where it was in relation to known fixed points and its precise construction. The detailed drawing was originally at 1:2,500 and I hope that it will dispel once and for all the notion that these Redoubts were the site of massive subterranean constructions, or that tunnels ran from them in all directions. Published artists' impressions of the Redoubt are just that - and about as scientific as cutaway drawings of Dan Dare's spaceship in the Eagle comic used to be. The map of St Pierre Divion shows the location of the nearest tunnel to the Schwaben Redoubt. It ran parallel to the modern road and is marked as 'Stollen'. This was constructed by Hauptmann Leiling of Leilingschlucht [Y Ravine] fame and was a seriously large project. British sappers later estimated that (in Jan 17) it would hold 300 men; 1,000 if some additional work were to be done. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 I see that three of the maps are not too clear at that resolution. I shall re-scan and re-post them. The sequence from top left to bottom is 26th Reserve Division Positions Spring 1915, Infantry Regiment 180 map of June 1915, 26th Reserve Division Positions December 1915, Schwaben redoubt early July 1916 and St Pierre Divion early July 1916. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 26th Reserve Division Positions around Thiepval Spring/Summer 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 26th Reserve Division Positions around Thiepval December 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 St Pierre Divion Early July 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ypres1418 Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Des, thanks for the pic, it puts in to perspective for little old me, Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 22 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Info at bottom of scan - all good stuff! Jack ... efforts much appreciated Anyone else 'up' for taking on other sectors (under their own title!!!) across the battlefield? I'm enjoying this but as you know 'Parochial R Us' when it comes to 1st July. Any 32nd Div guys out there? 29thers .... let's be having you! Des Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desmond7 Posted 22 June , 2005 Author Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Update on Ancre North aerial interpretation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Jack your maps are phantastic -thanx!!! But there is always a but: the last map from early July 1916 does not depict the location of the Schwaben Redoubt -it would be most interesting if you could scan the connecting right side which leads to the location of Feste Schwaben. I am curious whether any "Stollen" or tunnel systems are depicted. I am still inquiring because I always was told of deep system of tunnels; last time I visited the Ulster Tower warden, he showed me a newly caved in entrance behind the tower, obviously leading to a deep underground tunnel system. He told some guys tried to enter the system but had to return after 50m!!! because unstable. Within the tower cafe there is a drawing at the wall, depicting the huge underground system. Also I read in some old German book (don't remember which) that the MG crews climbed up after the 1 July bombardment from the tunnel system through kind of funnels to above ground prepared locations surrounded 360 degrees by barbed wires =islands of MG positions accessible from deep tunnel systems. The warden also told me of a group of people many years ago that managed to access parts of the Feste Schwaben tunnel system from now defunct entrances at St Pierre etc etc. Is there real evidence that there was NONE or that there WAS indeed a tunnel system, which made up the formidable fortress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Here is a picture of one of the newly caved in entrances behind the Ulster Tower. The entrance measures ca. 1x1 m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Thanks to Des and all the other guys for sharing the pictures and maps. An amazing amount of pictures and knowledge all in just one thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Egbert Be assured that there were no tunnels between St Pierre Divion and Schwaben Redoubt - ever. There were no large underground installations there either, nor did tunnels run in any other direction from it. Attached is a summary of the evidence. It is of course difficult to prove a negative, but in this case, both the British and German evidence is in complete agreement. After extensive searches in the records in Germany and UK, nothing has ever turned up to the contrary. Artists' impressions and other fantastical drawings are as worthless as the rumour and myth which has built up around this place, whose place in history is any case guaranteed by the heroism of all who fought so hard for its possession. Follow up posts are designed to show that the Germans recorded meticulously every little mined dugout, so here please find surveys of tunnels below Mouquet Farm and Thiepval - even though both are minor. If there had been tunnels below Schwaben redoubt, we should know about them. There is a better repeat scan of the Redoubt and finally the British pictorial evidence is presented; being a pair of scans of a complete survey conducted by British sappers in the area in Jan 1917. The tunnel system in St Pierre Divion appears - because it existed; the phantom tunnels below Schwaben Redoubt do not - because they did not exist. Jack The_Case_Against_Tunnels_in_or_around_Schwaben_Redoubt.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 22 June , 2005 Share Posted 22 June , 2005 Tunnels below Mouquet Farm and Thiepval Village - presented to show that no underground working, no matter how minor was left unsurveyed by German engineers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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