Killing Field

[Desmond7]

Such a tiny area ...

[ChrisC]

Desmond, could you explain further which area we're talking about? I guess Somme 1916, but I'm no genius when it comes to aeriel photos or trench maps.

C

[carninyj]

Des

Am I right in thinking this is the area immediately left of the road to Beaucourt Station ( from Hamel and as the advancing 12th RIR would have looked at it) and is that Ancre Cemetery in the photo?

Regards

Carninyj

[Desmond7]

Right first time - great perspective from the air! See the Western Front Association's contributed articles ... scroll down for aerial photos. Some truly wonderful pics.

Des

Note the path beside the cemetery almost conforms to a German sap line on the trench map. I wonder ....

[towisuk]

Correct, this is the battle area for the 13 November 1916 in which the RND had a big part. Ancre cemetery seen in the photo has several RND casualties buried there.

A memorial to the RND involved in the taking of this ground can be found in Beaucourt sur Ancre just off to the left of this photo opposite the village church

Tom

[towisuk]

Sorry my mistake, Beaucourt off to the RIGHT of the photo.

Tom

[Paul Reed]

Des - the track you can see is the same one marked on the trench map. Part way up it there is a German concerete OP bunker. You should be able to place it from this general view taken on a misty March morning.

[Paul Reed]

Close up of the bunker.

[Desmond7]

Thanks for those ...

I'd like to do a similar for Ulster Tower/Thiepval Wood/Schwaben sector.

Sadly no trench map in the files ... anyone able to post one up for roughly July 1 1916 period?

Cheers all

[CROONAERT]

I'd like to do a similar for Ulster Tower/Thiepval Wood/Schwaben sector.

Sadly no trench map in the files ... anyone able to post one up for roughly July 1 1916 period?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Des.

From my Paths of Glory website where you'll find the whole Somme frontline of 1/7/16 from above Fonquevillers (Monchy au Bois) down to Becourt covered in 1:20,000 scale trenchmap format...

Dave.

[jayne w]

Loved the misty battlefield shots..

Jayne W

( Nigel will say its cos I am a woman...) see different thread about battlefield war dead,..

[Desmond7]

Dave just paid a visit to your site.

Top class.

Great resource.

Des

[Desmond7]

Here we go ..

[Paul Reed]

Nice one Des - like the effect of the wartime photos.

[Jack Sheldon]

I am sorry to be the one who throws a spanner in the works, especially as this thread has some really good images, but I must take issue with Desmond. The circle around Mill Road cemetery is not the site of the Schwaben Redoubt. If you look at the map that Dave posted, which is the clearest of them, the two main features of the Schwaben Redoubt; namely the Kampfgraben and the Wohngraben can be seen running away, about 30 metres apart, northwest from near where the crucifix is named on the map - i.e. about 250 metres north of Thiepval cemetery. The western extremity of the Redoubt coincided with the modern track from Thiepval cemetery to St Pierre Divion and was located about 250 metres north east of the northen tip of Mill Road cemetery. The 'northern' edge of Mill Road Cemetery actually corresponds (more or less) to the front line trench in C3 and is about equidistant between the communication trenches known as Muenstergraben and Teufelsgraben.

Jack

[Desmond7]

Jack - happy to bow to what you say.

I have to say that the cemetery circled is very widely credited as the site of the Schwaben redoubt. Perhaps others have read the same?

Des

Could you do a cut'n' paste and draw a circle/square around the area you describe if it features on the aerial shot?

PS .. that's what the forum is for! We learn something new every time we go on-line.

[Jack Sheldon]

Des

I am definitely not being critical;it's just that I specialise in the German side of the story and my sources are taken from the archives in Germany. I have made a special studyof the Schwaben Redoubt both for my book on the Somme which is out next month and for a forthcoming Battleground Europe title. If this attachment works, you will see the rough triangular shape of the Redoubt, sitting back on the old third line of the First Position, which was developed into the Intermediate Position. Ignore the scale, which is more than double that of the 1:25k map.

Jack

[Jack Sheldon]

Sorry Des

I hadn't quite got the hang of attachment size. I hope that this reduction will work and still be clear.

Jack

[Desmond7]

Cheers - have to wait until I get on home PC ... this one is slow as a cart horse!

[swizz]

I remember seeing a diagram of the Redoubt which showed it covering much of the brow of the hill facing Thiepval Wood. Of course most of it was underground. I always understood that the Mill Road cemetery was on top of part of it - hence the headstones lying flat rather than standing up due to susidence, but I know there's a deep dugout at the back of the Ulster Tower so it certainly went as far across as that.

Nice graphics Des

[Desmond7]

OK.. how's this look for the first stage of the attack ... just before 107 Bde. get going ???

If I'm a wee bit off with my placements forgive me ... if I'm WAY off kick me hard!

Cheers all.

Love these aerial pics.

[J T Gray]

Might I make a small suggestion, Des?

Use "approximate/approx" rather than "rough" - sounds more considered.

Adrian

(must have got out of the pedantic side of the bed)

[swizz]

I'm not really qualified to comment on the accuracy of this, but assuming that it's even approximately correct, these graphics have really helped me understand the advance. Seeing it laid out on the photo makes it very clear - to my mind anyway!

Swizz

[Desmond7]

Fanx troops - I'll make the approx. change .... I now can fit the word into the space!

Des

I'm gonna spend some time doing the 8.45am to noon scenario. Therapy!

[egbert]

Feste Schwaben should also go further to the left of your pic; see attached map