RSM Collier MC DCM Queen's Own Oxfordshire Hussars

[ChrisC]

Well!!! All you guys are absolute stars.

Here's his other 2 MICs as highlighted by PPCLI

[Stebie9173]

Thought you'd gone to bed!

That's an old DCM card! Never seen one like that before...

The 2nd Card, is just the entitlement to the 1914 Star. Sounds right.

It seems that he was with the Queens Own Oxfordshire Hussars all the way in France, presumably 1/1st, and 18th Hussars before the War.

Looks like he was wounded and out of the fray earlier than we thought.

You should also be able to find him on the Hussars Queen's South Africa Medal rolls. It will tell you what Bars he was awarded and for which battles and which states he fought in. They are on Microfilm at Kew. WO100.

Steve.

[ChrisC]

Yep! I've got the references for the QSAM. I hope to go later this week or next. I'll also try to look for reference to his brother (myGGF) who also apparently served in SA.

As is only fair and in recognition of all the help you guys have given me, feel free to request me to look things up, get copies etc.

Thanks once again.

C

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Sorry, I just got the book titles off Abe, but my local library has Abbott’s so I’ll have a look for you.

I’m probably teaching egg sucking, but I’m guessing that his papers are more likely to be in WO 364/748, 749, 4913, 5111, or 5803 and maybe some are in WO 97.

Speculating maybe that may be the Boer War DCM MIC.

[ChrisC]

[Thanks Per..

I’m probably teaching egg sucking,

No way. I'm a baby at this and may need to be told the obvious. I hope to get to Kew maybe on Friday and I'll look at thses refereences.

[Stebie9173]

The QSAM Rolls are arranged by regiment, so some idea of who Walter served with will be needed...

Steve.

EDIT : Of course, if I could read, I'd have spotted that it was Highland Light Infantry. Carry on without me!

[ChrisC]

Well... family "oral" history had it that Walter William was HLI and served again overseas in the Great War. But as you can all imagine I'm finding family hearsay a bit weak. I have a theory now that the aged Parent and Grandparent were mixing the 2 brothers up a bit. Problem is that the page in the 1891 census showing him as a Corporal in Barracks doesn't name a Regiment. So it's "chuck and chance" methinks.

Oh by the way...is there likely to be an MIC for the MC??

Edited 7 June , 2005 by ChrisC

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Here’s the details from Abbott, no photo I’m afraid, but I think the other details like POW are a bonus!

3513 L/Sgt Collier, A. 18 Hussars;

DCM LG 19.4.01; AO 163/01; pow 20-26.10.99 Dundee and released;

bar in LG 11.3.16 cancelled and replaced by MC LG 17.4.17 (A/RSM, attached Oxfordshire Hussars)

[per ardua per mare per terram]

No way. I'm a baby at this and may need to be told the obvious. I hope to get to Kew maybe on Friday and I'll look at thses refereences.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You will need to check the references in WO 363 (unfortunately the records don’t go up sequentially) and WO 363 mis-sorts 26 too.

[ChrisC]

Too right with the ref to POW, it means I can place him at a particular incident in SA (which I read about but can't recall), where a British column was lured into an ambush and captured. I think it's in one of the Hussar websites on T'internet.

So the poor old boy just got his MC a few weeks before he died.

C

No, I was having a CRAFT moment about the website - it referred to an inciden the next year

BTW Any clues pals on finding an obituary in a local newspaper, either Henley where he died or York where the QOOH has his home (not sure about the York connection). There may be a photo??

[bernardmcilwaine]

hiya chris,heres what i have,L/sgt arthur collier,DCM,won in south africa,he was taken prisoner at dundee from the 20th oct till 26th,1899 then released,he was serving with the 18th hussars,his DCM is in the london gazette 19-4-01,he earned a bar to the DCM in ww1 but this was cancelled and replaced with the MC gazetted 17-4-17,his DCM bar was gazetted originally and appeared in the LG on 11-3-16,during ww1 he was att to the ox hussars as act RSM,sorry thats the lot chris,bernard

[Stebie9173]

As far as Walter is concerned most of the other soldiers on the 1891 Census at Kensington Barracks are of the 14th Hussars.

From what Per Ardua Per Mare Per Terram has posted it looks like his bar to the DCM was changed to a Military Cross. Hence, he has 1 DCM and 1 MC, the MC being for his action to which the 11-3-1916 Gazette entry and citation refers.

Hence one DCM (his action in early 1901) and one MC (the rescuing of wounded men at the end of 1915)

He may have received his MC just before he died but it was earnt back in late 1915 early 1916, I think.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Sorry, Bernard. Posts passed in the erm, post.

At least the bit on Walter is original...

Steve.

[bernardmcilwaine]

chris,i would have thought that he would be mentioned in his own regts history the 18th hussars not the attatched regt,the 18th and the ox hussars were both part of the 2nd and later 1st cavalry div,bernard

[ChrisC]

Bernard Per & Steve

Thanks again for the invaluable info. I can now go to Kew and have a much better chance of finding Walter William. The bit about 14th Hussars fits in with a snippet from gord in the US who told me he'd seen a reference to "The Horsed Foot barracks in Kensington". Didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time... not a lot does sometimes ....but now it may fit.

next steps, a line to the respective Regimental Museums. You never know.. the 18th or its successor may even have Arthur's medals

Thanks again

C

[Stebie9173]

That was the census page I was looking at - "Horsed Foot Barracks, Kensington". Pretty odd title, really. I was looking at the images of the actual census pages and most of the entries noted 14th Hussars with the odd Army Pay Corps, etc. thrown in.

Steve.

[ChrisC]

It must be the same 1891 census page I have but can I see the reference to Barracks?? Can I hell!! I couldn't see any reference to Regiment or Corps at all - everyone listed as Army. Interesting that the birthplace has changed to Malmesbury and the rank of the Colour Sgt is spelt in Amaerican - COLOR.

This is reference RG 12/29 - same one?

C

[ChrisC]

Another thing. With reference to RSM Arthur, on the MIC for his Mons Star the remarks say:

Dis. 9/1/17

Since Died

W5/1/10199

This would indicate that the MIC was completed post 1/6/17 (date of his death). Do the letters indicate a cause of discharge? I believe he's recorded as "died at home" but he was 45 and had been serving for possibly 2-3 years in a war zone. Is there any indication that the reason for discharge and the reason for death could be connected?

Thoughts??

C

[Stebie9173]

The Hussars references were on later pages when you get to the Private soldiers. The 14th Hussars seem to be mentioned on Pages 5-8 of the Census, whereas Walter is on Page 1.

So not really that conclusive. At least it's a place to start...

Steve.

[ian turner]

Of course you can always apply for a copy of the death certificate from the GRO.

It will give cause of death, where died, date, etc.

Ian

[ChrisC]

Of course you can always apply for a copy of the death certificate from the GRO.

It will give cause of death, where died, date, etc.

Ian

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are they at the NA or the Family History Centre, Ian?

C

[PPCLI]

Are they at the NA or the Family History Centre

Neither I'm afraid Chris. The FRC and NA do have the relevant indexes for the various registers, but the certificates themselves must be ordered from GRO (can be done online for £7.00 a time as long as you're sure you've got the correct registration details).

See: GRO FAQs

We've just been discussing the advantages/disadvantages of the Scottish system in Chit-Chat.

Hope this helps,

Stuart

[ChrisC]

Thanks Stuart. Here's a photograph of his grave in Henley. Nice inscription I thought.

C

Won't post - too big, dedication reads

"In loving memory of our dear brother RSM A Collier

MC DCM

18th Hussars and Oxfordshire Yeomanry who died June 1st 1917 aged 45 years. Respected by all, loved by many.

A faithful friend to all,

noble and courageous though unassuming.

A modest hero and an ideal soldier.

For his country his life he gave, his end was perfect peace."

[ian turner]

try www.1837online.com

It is a pay per view site where you can search for the required certificates and even order online. You have his date of death, so it should not prove too hard to find his certificate.

Ian

[ChrisC]

Thanks ian.

C

STOP PRESS!!

Just got this from the Regimental Archive courtesy of Peter Maasz.

The Regimental History shows that in October 1914 when the regt was at St Omer A.Collier was SSM (Squadron Sergt Major) of 'C' Squadron. In February 1916 he was appointed RSM when the previous RSM (Pearce) went back to England due to ill-health. On 20th November 1916 "Mr Collier, the RSM, had to go to hospital in England. He had almost completely lost his voice, and although he seemed quite confident that he would get right and come out again, he died of consumption in June 1917."

" During the first 18 months of the war he [Collier] had been a pillar of strength to 'C' squadron, and a constant help and support, first to Major Nicholl, and then to Major Val Fleming [brother to Ian Fleming - James Bond] his squadron leaders, who always thought very highly of him. His promotion to be RSM in February 1916, at the same time as Major Fleming became Second-in-Command of the Regiment, was a serious loss to his old squadron, but he never forgot his old friends there and always took a special interest in their welfare and efficiency. The perpetual office work at Headquarters was not much to his taste; his greatest wish was for real cavalry fighting and a chance to use his sword, failing which, he was happiest in the front trenches. If perhaps he seemed rather stern and grim to those who did not know him well, especially to young officers and men, he was always popular with the sergeants and respected by the senior officers. He was a fine soldier and a brave man."