guardsman or private

[Dave_59]

I was going to suggest that it had something to do with the different Guards regiments.

dave

[Ali Hollington]

Grenadier Guards used the rank of Private throughout the war.

Regards

Ali

[bernardmcilwaine]

hiya dave,its as i said,its simply called elevation of rank,there is one thing ime not certain about but it may be correct,someone on here said they start as a private and after a certain period of training they become guardsman,i think they are spot on,their basic training is a lot longer than a infantrymans,whoevers right or wrong,the end result will be another mystery solved and it gets you diggin around in books you forgot you had,bernard

[Ali Hollington]

One of my relatives joined the Sussex Regt pre-war, he then transfered to the Grenadier Guards -(again pre-war)- and when out with the BEF-see signature- he was later transfered to the RE prior to discharge due to wounds. Only on transfer to the RE did his rank change, this time to Sapper. I believe the Guardsman bit came in post war as recognition of the Guards hard work. Therefore in comtemplary references Private is used, but after the award Guardsman. I will check my regimental history and the war diaries, but that is my gut instinct!

Regards

Ali

[AGWR]

It was Mud, Blood and Poppycock:

'The British infantry today has a number of ranks all equating to private, including Fusiliers, Highlander, Kingsman and Ranger (until recently). During the Great War they were privates in the line infantry, Irish and Welsh Guards, and Riflemen in rifle regiments. The Grenadier and Scots Guards had guardsmen; the Coldstream Guards had privates until 1918 when they became guardsmen; and all members of the Guards Machine Gun Battalion, part of the Machine Gun Corps, were guardsmen.' (Page 137: Footnote 1)

Can anyone dismiss or verify what Gordon Corrigan has written? I am intrigued by this conundrum, and have often wondered about the guardsman/ private ranks on headstones.

Regards,

AGWR

[Robbo 46]

in todays army

the rank of guardsmen, is the same as private, Fusiliers, Highlander, Kingsman

Robbo

a Kingsman for 14 years

[Alan_J]

in todays army

the rank of guardsmen, is the same as private, Fusiliers, Highlander, Kingsman

Robbo

a Kingsman for 14 years

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Robbo,

Which regiment(s) use Kingsman?

Alan

[manxman]

king's Regiment

(amalgum of King's Liverpool and Manchester Regiments)

[TD60]

It was Mud, Blood and Poppycock:

'The British infantry today has a number of ranks all equating to private, including Fusiliers, Highlander, Kingsman and Ranger (until recently).  During the Great War they were privates in the line infantry, Irish and Welsh Guards, and Riflemen in rifle regiments. The Grenadier and Scots Guards had guardsmen; the Coldstream Guards had privates until 1918 when they became guardsmen; and all members of the  Guards Machine Gun Battalion, part of the Machine Gun Corps, were guardsmen.' (Page 137: Footnote 1)

Can anyone dismiss or verify what Gordon Corrigan has written? I am intrigued by this conundrum, and have often wondered about  the guardsman/ private ranks on headstones.

Regards,

AGWR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello

Another mystery here or something not fully exact with the last words.

Guards Machine Gun Battalion privates were also called "Trooper":

Here my thougt is : when they were coming from life guards

they could keep their original title : "trooper".

Regards

[Jock Bruce]

Some (most ?) battalions of the Guards MG Regt were formed from Household Cavalry, this is why you get the rank of 'Trooper'.

Jock

[bernardmcilwaine]

thats right jock,they were lifeguards,they are listed in their roll of honour in the westminster abbey memorial service book,bernard

[AndrewThornton]

Guardsmen are not senior, but are equivalent to Privates, Fusiliers, Troopers, Gunners etc.

The Foot Guards do not, however, have Lance-Corporals. Lance-Corporal, though now a rank, was originally an appointment but was never adopted by the Foot Guards. Instead, Foot Guard "lance-corporals" are Corporals and "corporals" Lance-Sergeants.

Similarly, the ranks of the Household Cavalry equate to the old system used by regiments of Horse in the 17th and 18th Century. There are also no Sergeants in the Household Cavalry, only Corporals, but of course they hold ranks equivalent (and not superior to) their comrades in other regiments and corps. Therefore, you have strange titles like Regimental Quartermaster Corporal instead of RQMS, or Lance-Corporal of Horse, which is equivalent to Corporal.

However, what Bernard Corrigan wrote about the Grenadiers and Scots Guards being "Guardsmen" before their cousins in the Coldstream, Irish and Welsh Guards is, to use a painful pun, "poppycock"

[bernardmcilwaine]

there are some interesting answers on the topic, and when its finally solved it will bring up another additional poser,if a pte/guardsman was killed/died between 1914-18 what do you inscribe on his stone/mem,its not important,its just one of those things that are interesting to chat about,bernard

[squirrel]

The Household Cavalry and The Guards also have their own "system" of rank badges for NCO's as well. They appear to have different rank markings for full dress, service dress, greatcoat order etc - I've tried to understand it but it seems a complex business.

If you watch The Queen's Birthday parade, you will notice that in full dress, Corporals wear 2 white stripes, Lance Sergeants three white stripes and Sergeants three gold stripes (for stripes read chevrons).

[bernardmcilwaine]

hiya squirrell,i read somewhere that the junior NCOs wore them in silver and the senior NCOs in gold,and your right it is complex,bernard

[Ali Hollington]

One story is that Queen Victoria didn't like the look of the single stripe on the uniforms of the Guards performing their duties, therefore 2 stripes for first rank- Cpl, three for next Lance Sgt and finally three again but gold for a Sgt. The Household cavalry don't have Sgts- IIRC sergeant is greek/latin for slave.

The finer points of this was explained to me by my recruit instructors a few years ago, but running around holding a SLR above my head affected my memory retention.

Ali

[AGWR]

Thanks for all the replies. It's amazing that Corrigan appears to have got it so wrong. I wonder from where he got this information.

Regards,

AGWR

[Dave_59]

Thanks for all the replies. It's amazing that Corrigan appears to have got it so wrong. I wonder from where he got this information.

Regards,

AGWR

Im not...

If you look at the Book reviews section you will see a lot of critisism about this book and the ideas presented by Corrigan. (i havent read it, just flicked through)

[bernardmcilwaine]

this topic has got you all rooting through your books,they were things that you consulted before computers were invented, bernard

[ypres1418]

so have we agreed private aka guardsman or not,

you lost me! but then thats not difficult,

Mandy

[Robbo 46]

Robbo,

Which regiment(s) use Kingsman?

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry Alan just seen your Question

the rank of Kingsman is used by the 1st Battalion the King's Regiment

The British Army's City Regiment of Liverpool and Manchester

but not for much longer

try this link http://www.amlot.freeserve.co.uk/ for todays Regiment

The Regiment has battle honours from service all over the world, from Marlborough's battles in the 18th century to Korea in 1953. In World War I the Regiment raised the second largest number of battalions of any regiment in the Army - 87.

In World War II, the Regiment served world-wide. Battalions fought in France in 1940, took part in the heroic defence of Malta, landed in the first few minutes of the D-Day operation and fought in the jungles of Burma. A battalion of the Regiment fought with great distinction in the first Chindit expedition and another battalion fought with equal bravery, providing the glider-borne spearhead of the second Chindit expedition. Battalions fought in Italy and across Northwest Europe until the end of the war. In the last 50 years, regular battalions, often reinforced from territorial battalions, have served on operations in Korea, Malaya, Kenya, Kuwait, Northern Ireland, Hong Kong and Belize. Garrisons have been provided for Guyana, the Falklands and of course for extended periods all over Germany.

The Regiment's volunteer battalion tradition stems both from its 5th (Rifle) Battalion The King's (Liverpool) - which was originally the third to be raised in the country and the first in the North West of England - and the 8th (Ardwick) Battalion the Manchester Regiment.

[squirrel]

To add a bit more confusion, the Corps of Drums of The Honourable Artillery Company in full dress wear the same uniform as the Grenadier Guards, including the bearskin cap, but with silver lace and the usual rank markings; you might see them at the Lord Mayor's show.

They have in the past provided the corps of drums for the changing of the guard at St James's Palace.

Another "legend" that I heard regarding Queen Victoria and the Guards was that she ordered that no Guards Drum Major would toss a mace after she had witnessed one being dropped. Any body ever seen a Guards Drum Major toss a mace? I think the Royal Marines do that best.

[Ali Hollington]

Now Marines and their tossing abilities- thats a whole different subject!

Ali

[Muerrisch]

at a further tangent: my father used to tell of a militia or volunteer force drum major in his area [Hounslow, more or less] who, when leading a parade, on passing under the railway bridge, tossed the mace OVER THE BRIDGE AND CAUGHT IT THE OTHER SIDE.

Hmmmmm ................

[bernardmcilwaine]

langley,thats one story i would never ever doubt,because it was probably true,theres a scottish band in my area,and the elderly guy with the mace fires it into the clouds,and he never ever looks up to see where it is,but he always catches it,bernard