guardsman or private

[bernardmcilwaine]

i was led to believe that the rank,guardsman didnt come in till 1933,has anyone got photos of graves to anyone from the guards,do they give their correct rank of pte or guardsman on the stone,there is a difference,because a guardsman is superior to a pte so any guardsman inscription will be wrong,because it will be saying that the man is of a higher rank to any ptes buried in the same cemetary,bernard

[Desmond7]

Obituary if it's any use ...

Private William White

Mr. Samuel White, Knockboy, Broughshane, has been informed that his son, Pte William White, Irish Guards, has been killed in action on September 15th. Before joining the army he was a member of the UVF and was a farm labourer in the neighbourhood.

His brother Rfn. Robert White, is stationed in Carrickfergus with the 5th Btn. Royal Irish Rifles.

Ballymena Observer, October 13, 1916

[TD60]

Hello

Here is a grave with Guardsman and this is quite common.

There are others with Private.

I thought it was a decision taken just after the war by the king

for the guards regiments to replace this word.

But I am maybe wrong.

Regards

[TD60]

An exemple with private:

Is there any rule ?

Best regards

[bernardmcilwaine]

Obituary if it's any use ...

Private William White

Mr. Samuel White, Knockboy, Broughshane, has been informed that his son, Pte William White, Irish Guards, has been killed in action on September 15th. Before joining the army he was a member of the UVF and was a farm labourer in the neighbourhood.

His brother Rfn. Robert White, is stationed in Carrickfergus with the 5th Btn. Royal Irish Rifles.

Ballymena Observer, October 13, 1916

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thanks des,by the way,happy birthday

[Tom Morgan]

An exemple with private:

Is there any rule ?

Best regards

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The Army website says:

The rank of Guardsman replaced that of Private in all Guards Regiments in 1919, an honour awarded by the King in recognition of their great effort during the War.

Tom

[Desmond7]

Bern ... thanks but mine is well past.. now heading towards (classified).

[bernardmcilwaine]

Hello

Here is a grave with Guardsman and this is quite common.

There are others with Private.

I thought it was a decision taken just after the war by the king

for the guards regiments to replace this word.

But I am maybe wrong.

Regards

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thanks td60,i would not doubt you on that,you could well be right,but your examples of different ranks on stones,reinforces my cause,bernard

[bernardmcilwaine]

thanks td60,i would not doubt you on that,you could well be right,but your examples of different ranks on stones,reinforces my cause,bernard

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hiya tom,that means i am right,any guardsman dying before that date is a pte,td60 has kindly posted two egs,i wonder if there are any two inscriptions in the same cemetary,AND,it means that all the guards were actually promoted after death,bernard, ps whens your new catalogue out,i havent ordered any books off you for ages

[TD60]

Hello,

So we agree on the fact that guardsman was a new name created just after the war: King's decision.

Anyway this does not give the reason why in one case there is private

inscribed on the grave and on the other Guardsman.

seems not connected two dates. The two death dates are too close.

I see two possibilities:

a) The guards soldier with "private" on the grave (I have only this exemple)

for some reason (a fault, no real fights for him ?) did not have the right to have "guardsman" title on the grave.

CWGC is now replacing guardsman by private when making new graves of those units.

I noticed it is already the case for Royal Army Service Corps replaced by Army Service Corps badge when the death is before end-1918.

It is also the trend for RAF badge now replaced by RFC one when soldier

died before 1/04/1918 (RAF created), [even if I fought a grave

with another release of the RFC badge]

Do you see another reason or do you know the right answer ?

Best regards

[Dave_59]

Why would the CWGC want to change it to private (from Guardsman). I much prefer Guardsman and i think it is a more appropriate name for the rank.

Dave

[Muerrisch]

as I have noted before, the Royal Welch Fusiliers appear as Royal Welsh Fusiliers on new stones cut since about 1985.

So a bank of RWF headstones can be very heterogeneous, and will be for many years to come.

Bureaucracy gone mad.

The original stones were cut after the regiment was allowed to revert to Welch in [from memory] 1920. Then CWGC woke to fact soldiers served as Royal Welsh, this despite the fact that for all purposes except strict formality, the regiment ALWAYS regarded itself as Welch.

Funny old world.

[Rup]

Are you sure guardsman is a superior rank to private,i thought it was the same,like rifleman in rifle brigade or fusilier in a fusilier regimemt.

[Terry Denham]

Then CWGC woke to fact soldiers served as Royal Welsh, this despite the fact that for all purposes except strict formality, the regiment ALWAYS regarded itself as Welch.

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CWGC do not 'decide' on matters such as badge or regimental name.

These are specified by the military where there is any doubt. The army instruction for 'Welch/Welsh' is that the name 'Royal Welch Fusiliers' must be used from 29.02.20 onwards for everything but 'Welsh' before that date.

There has been quite a bit of regiment tidying of late and the next update of their database will show this.

[Dave_59]

Are you sure guardsman is a superior rank to private,i thought it was the same,like rifleman in rifle brigade or fusilier in a fusilier regimemt.

As far as i am aware, Guardsman is equivalent to private (as is a gunner/trooper etc.)

Dave

[bernardmcilwaine]

hiya dave,sorry mate but i think you will find,that guardsman is senior,take for eg cpl of horse,hes the equivalent of a sgt of infantry,they are household brigade[posh] ,bernard

[bernardmcilwaine]

Are you sure guardsman is a superior rank to private,i thought it was the same,like rifleman in rifle brigade or fusilier in a fusilier regimemt.

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guardsman holds seniority rup,bernard

[bernardmcilwaine]

guardsman holds seniority rup,bernard

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to try and be as accurate as i can regarding ranks in the household brigade without trawling through a load of books,a L/cpl of infantry has one stripe,a guardsman has two,a cpl of infantry wore two stripes,in the guards he had three and was known as a L/sgt,its called "elevation of rank",in the 1870s a captain in the guards was equal to that of a Lt colonel of line till the practise was abolished,but the ORs elevation of seniority still continues today,bernard

[PhilB]

This:- "1918 InNovember the title “Guardsman” was introduced to replace that of “Private” in the Brigade of Guards."

gives the impression that it`s merely a change of name with no difference in rank. I had the impression that he`d be a private until he passed out of training and became a trained soldier. Phil B

[Dave_59]

What i meant is that within a regiment of the guards a Guardsman holds the equivalent rank of private...the first rung on the ladder so to speak. Then its cpl, sjt etc.

dave

[bernardmcilwaine]

your spot on phil,bernard

[bernardmcilwaine]

This:- "1918  InNovember the title “Guardsman” was introduced to replace that of “Private” in the Brigade of Guards."

  gives the impression that it`s merely a change of name with no difference in rank. I had the impression that he`d be a private until he passed out of training and became a trained soldier. Phil B

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you are spot on phil,but he holds seniority over a infantry pte when hes a guardsman

[bernardmcilwaine]

What i meant is that within a regiment of the guards a Guardsman holds the equivalent rank of private...the first rung on the ladder so to speak. Then its cpl, sjt etc.

dave

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yes dave,bernard

[TD60]

Hello

So the reason one of guard soldier is called guardsman and the other private on the two gravestones stays mysterious.

CWGC mystery ....

Regards

[AGWR]

I can't remember where I read this, but my understanding is that the Grenadier Guards and Scots Guards had the rank of 'Guardsman' throughout the Great War. The Coldstreams started the war with the rank of 'Private', but this changed at some point during the war to 'Guardsman'. The Irish and Welsh Guards did not have the rank of 'Guardsman' at all during the war.

Is this right? I will see if I can find the source for this.

Regards,

AGWR