Private James Johnson Cheshire Regiment circa 1920 - help please

[Alpineted]

3 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

The nearest I can find, but the first name and age are incorrect, is John Johnson from Liverpool. 
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F09596%2F0032%2F29

St Nicholas Industrial School Manor Park East Ham, East Ham, London & Essex, England

I would have thought it more likely that he was born in Liverpool, and was orphaned in London, given there were Industrial Schools the length and breadth of the country.

Hi Keith, 

James was definitely born in Liverpool in 1903, his sister was my grandmother, who was alive when I was growing up. Their mother died in 1909 and James, my great aunt Nell (Ellen born 1900) and my grandmother Rose went to live with their 'Aunt Ann Tyson'. Unfortunately she died in April 1911 and within 2 weeks Rose and Ellen were withdrawn from school and admitted into Dingle Lane home for girls.

I am confident that James will have been admitted to a boys home, I had not thought that he might have been moved to a home outside Liverpool - but I guess that is possible. He married in Liverpool in 1923 and died young in 1936.

Thank you for searching Keith - much appreciated.

[Alpineted]

38 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Scholar Street (in Wavertree?) was demolished some time ago, but had a postcode of L7 4JR. It ran off Smithdown Road
On the other side there are Whittier Street and Wendell Street which remain to this day.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18.0&lat=53.39742&lon=-2.94556&layers=168&right=BingRoad

Thanks Keith, 

I have not seen this side by side type map before, something else I have learned today. 

Thank you

[Keith_history_buff]

This website, specifically for Liverpool, is of use in identifying that Sherlock Street came off Walton Beck Road, Anfield.
https://historic-liverpool.co.uk/old-streets-liverpool/#16/53.4310/-2.9705

When it existed, the address, prior to closure was:

Sherlock Street, Liverpool, Merseyside, L5 0PA

[Alpineted]

Thanks Keith - I will look at this now

 

Lin

[Keith_history_buff]

That website is useful for indicating that Upper Potter Street was situated close to Netherfield Methodist Church, Hapton Street, Liverpool, L5 3RH
https://historic-liverpool.co.uk/old-streets-liverpool/#16/53.4265/-2.9760

A website that I find useful for old census addresses for 1891 is the following:
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20130227205903/http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:West_Derby_Registration_District%2C_1891_Census_Street_Index

[Keith_history_buff]

To conclude, there are 3 men in the battalion from Scotland on the 1921 census, none of whom come close to George McKie / Baxter
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=1921+census+of+england+%26+wales&sid=103&address=avondale+house%2c+rathdrun%2c+co+wicklow&keywords=scotland&keywordsplace_proximity=5

Fingers crossed, the archive do have the Army Form 358 Enlistment Book, and can send you an image.

[Madmeg]

James. If his father was still alive he might have gone back to him, or he could have stayed with the Tysons or gone to an orphanage, or given that he was with the brother at time of marriage perhaps he was living with William Henry. So difficult  to track between census years.

In the photo he looks quite young, but he could have been 18 or 19 at a pinch. 

Born 1903 gives 18 in 1921, only just old enough to join up. But the man in county Wicklow is supposedly 11months older. If that is James I would suggest that he perhaps joined up at 17 giving his age as about a year older than he was. That to me would be the obvious reason for the age discrepency on the census.

If he did live with William Henry before the time of his marriage it might have inspired him to join up? Despite, perhaps because of the injuries his brother sustained.

To add to your work I would suggest that you could look for a James Johnson born Liverpool 1902, ie the age of the man in the 1921 census. If you find someone then it would be likely that the census is a red herring. If not.... 

[Alpineted]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

To conclude, there are 3 men in the battalion from Scotland on the 1921 census, none of whom come close to George McKie / Baxter
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=1921+census+of+england+%26+wales&sid=103&address=avondale+house%2c+rathdrun%2c+co+wicklow&keywords=scotland&keywordsplace_proximity=5

Fingers crossed, the archive do have the Army Form 358 Enlistment Book, and can send you an image.

Fingers crossed - I will let you know when I get a reply. Thank you.

[Alpineted]

1 hour ago, Madmeg said:

James. If his father was still alive he might have gone back to him, or he could have stayed with the Tysons or gone to an orphanage, or given that he was with the brother at time of marriage perhaps he was living with William Henry. So difficult  to track between census years.

In the photo he looks quite young, but he could have been 18 or 19 at a pinch. 

Born 1903 gives 18 in 1921, only just old enough to join up. But the man in county Wicklow is supposedly 11months older. If that is James I would suggest that he perhaps joined up at 17 giving his age as about a year older than he was. That to me would be the obvious reason for the age discrepency on the census.

If he did live with William Henry before the time of his marriage it might have inspired him to join up? Despite, perhaps because of the injuries his brother sustained.

To add to your work I would suggest that you could look for a James Johnson born Liverpool 1902, ie the age of the man in the 1921 census. If you find someone then it would be likely that the census is a red herring. If not.... 

Hi, 

Thank you for the suggestions. 

James father was still alive, he remarried and initially his children Rose, Ellen and James moved in with their father and step-mother. This was not a suitable arrangement, hence the children moved in with their aunt Ann Tyson.

Why do you say that James was living with William Henry when he got married?

I have found several discrepancies regarding 'age' during my family research and this no longer concerns me. I note that on James marriage certificate in 1923, his age is shown as 22 - though he was only 20.. whether that is because he genuinely believed he was 22 or that he lied about his age in order to join the Army (which I believe was quite common), I don't know. 

I understand what you say about the motivation to join the Army, I was surprised, given that his oldest brother George died in France in tragic circumstances whilst serving with King's  own Liverpool regiment in May 1915 and that William Henry was also injured by gas shell in France in 1918, perhaps it was his motivation (if he joined aged 17) or perhaps he had little choice if he was attested as a child aged about 14. I guess I will never know, unless further records can be found for James. 

 

Let's keep our fingers crossed that something definitive can be found - thanks to everyone for your help in my search.

 

Lin

 

[Madmeg]

Hi Lin, the marriage certificate for James gives his residence as 57 potter st ? I had a quick flick through william henrys military record . There are some letters fron two sisters giving addresses, hoylake and australia. Then thereis a slip, which i think might be the receipt for his medals, which gives his address as 57 potter st. So it lookslike james was livibg with brother bill.

[Alpineted]

On 26/04/2024 at 14:41, Matlock1418 said:

Even without a service number with an accurate [or hopefully accurate] DoB you may [hopefully] be able to still get his records through a FoI request

Thank you Matlock - FOI request sent today - I will update all if and when I get a reply. 

Lin

[Alpineted]

On 28/04/2024 at 17:34, Alpineted said:

There are some photographs of st Peter's school online, sorry unable to share the link from my tablet. Yoliverpool is the site.

Thank you for this, I have now looked at the site and it will definitely be helpful to me going forward with my family research. 

[Alpineted]

On 28/04/2024 at 22:37, Keith_history_buff said:

If the archive has the Army Form 358 enlistment book, they could provide a bit more info. 
https://cheshiremilitarymuseum.org.uk/archives/ 

Just to let you know I have sent an email asking Cheshire Museum about Army Form 358 enlistment book and Enlisted Boy Entrants (as per earlier Frogsmile comment).

I am about to complete their Information Request Form and will send via post tomorrow. 

Will let you know how I get on - thanks again to all for your help.

[Alpineted]

14 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Then thereis a slip, which i think might be the receipt for his medals, which gives his address as 57 potter st. So it lookslike james was livibg with brother bill.

Hi Madmeg, 

Just a quick update for you - Upper Potter Street was the residence for several Johnson family member 'over the years' and I think it is possible that James did perhaps at some stage live with his brother Bill. 

William Henry Johnson joined the Army in 1915 - he is shown as a driver and a gunner in D/171 and D/170. 

His daughter Jessie (born on 14th November 1914) died on 25th June 1915 and his wife Sarah Helen died on 25th August 1921. It was not long after that, uncle Bill moved home (understandably), I have looked at 2 electoral rolls for 59 Upper Potter Street in 1922... in one he is shown at no. 59 with is mother in law and father in law.. he is not shown on second 1922. See attached, courtesy of Find My past and Ancestry.

The Johnson family were close and stayed that way until their deaths.   

[Alpineted]

On 29/04/2024 at 00:11, Madmeg said:

Following the links from Paul's site to William Henry's record it looks like James and his wife to be were living with William henry at the time of their marriage, 57 Potter street. There are addresses in hoylake for sister (g? ) m Johnson and sister e Johnson in Australia.  And a record I don't understand from st Louis USA for william Henry as well. A letter from Emily Johnson regarding brother George and ? M? , says he is safe and well.

Heaps on William henry with references to other family members.

Sorry  got to get ready for work so will leave it there.

Ps forces war records is pretty useless, just indexes of other indexes from my experience.

When I make a post about William Henry Johnson, I will mention the letters from his sisters that are shown on his Army records - I had hoped to write post about 'uncle Bill' before now, though I want to tie up loose ends for James first, that is almost complete now (in that I have emailed FOI request, Cheshire Museum etc and will now await their replies. I will let you all know when I receive replies) - so shouldn't be too long know. 

There has been such a very good response to my request for help regarding James - thanks to all. 
I knew little about James (as he died in 1936 - a long time before I was born), though I did know uncle Bill as I was growing up from a child - I am looking forward to finding out more about his military service and hopefully I will be able to fill in some blanks members might ask, about his civilian life.  

James married in 1923 and William Henry had moved on by then (see post I have made today, explaining why) - so they will not have lived together in Upper Potter Street then - though they did remain close as a family.  

 

[Alpineted]

2 minutes ago, Alpineted said:

James married in 1923 and William Henry had moved on by then (see post I have made today, explaining why) - so they will not have lived together in Upper Potter Street then - though they did remain close as a family.  

PS Just realised James and his wife Martha lived at number 76 Upper Potter Street when they married in 1936 - that is the address of Martha's parents. So, not living with William (or his in laws) but in the same Street.  

[Alpineted]

6 hours ago, Alpineted said:

Thank you Matlock - FOI request sent today - I will update all if and when I get a reply. 

 

I have had a reply - unfortunately no matches from the information I gave them - which was full name, date of birth and served in The Cheshire Regiment (I did not specify 1st battalion). I have been given the opportunity to provide them with more information - the reply to me said the more information I provide them, the better.

I wonder if the discrepancy in age might be the reason there is no match?

The initial request was a yes/no questionnaire and specific data questions. One of the problems I have is that I do not know when James enlisted, e.g. as a boy, perhaps age 14 or as a young man aged 17? I don't suppose there is any harm in passing on details about James from 1911. Any suggestions?

I think that the average processing time for request is 9 months. 

Hopefully the Cheshire Museum and/or Liverpool library archives may be able to find something. Fingers crossed.