Private James Johnson Cheshire Regiment circa 1920 - help please

[Alpineted]

I am writing to ask for advice regarding James Johnson, he was born in the Everton district of Liverpool in 1903 and died in Liverpool in 1936.

James was one of three brothers, George Johnson was born in 1890 and served in the Kings Own Liverpool regiment (service number 8103) and was killed in France in 1915.

His other brother William Henry Johnson was born in 1891 and served with the Royal Field Artillery (as a driver and a gunner - his service number was L/24332). 'Uncle Bill' was injured with a gas shell wound {severe} in 1918 I think - I will be making a separate post [probably over the weekend] about uncle Bill, as I would like to know more about his service and in particular about his injury in France and his convalescence etc. 

The reason I have included the information about James' brothers is to provide some context. 
I had no idea that James served in the Army, he was too young to serve in World War 1 as he was born in 1903. I was sorting through some old family photographs and came across the photo attached. On the back of the photo my mum had written James full name, so I am confident the photo is of him. I believe the cap badge identifies as the Cheshire Regiment.

I also attach a page from the census for Cheshire Regiment in County Wicklow - see entry number 17. If this is 'our uncle James', he may have lied about his age...   which I believe was a common occurrence at the time. I would like to be able to rule this possibility in or out.

I do not have a service number or address for James, does anyone know how I might find them please. I would also like to know when James joined and left the Army and also what his duties were during that period. Would he have been conscripted at this time or been a volunteer? I realise that the war was over at the time James joined, is there an equivalent to war diaries for the period after the great war. 

 

Any ideas and/or information will be much appreciated. I do have memberships with Ancestry, FMP, MyHeritage, Forces War Records and National Archives (so if anyone does find anything, if possible would you be able to send me a link/s please) - my lack of  knowledge about the Great War and this period generally, plus my 'search' inexperience means I have not been able to find anything other than what is shown above. 

Thank you for your help.

 

Lin

 

[Allan1892]

The census image that you have posted looks like a 1921 Census image. If it is, he has declared his age as 18 years 11 months. As the 1921 Census was taken on the 19th June 1921, working back over for 18 years 11 months gives a birth date circa July 1902

[Matlock1418]

I'm presuming you have the front pages for this 1921 Census record.

Given that this looks like 1921 then his service record may still be with the MoD or en-route to TNA

Even without a service number with an accurate [or hopefully accurate] DoB you may [hopefully] be able to still get his records through a FoI request

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

M

[Alpineted]

35 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

The census image that you have posted looks like a 1921 Census image. If it is, he has declared his age as 18 years 11 months. As the 1921 Census was taken on the 19th June 1921, working back over for 18 years 11 months gives a birth date circa July 1902

Thank you - yes, I meant to say it was the 1921 census.

James was born in May 1903

[Alpineted]

18 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm presuming you have the front pages for this 1921 Census record.

Given that this looks like 1921 then his service record may still be with the MoD or en-route to TNA

Even without a service number with an accurate [or hopefully accurate] DoB you may [hopefully] be able to still get his records through a FoI request

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

M

Thank you for the link, I have had a quick scan and will look into this properly this evening. This looks very promising.

It is 1921 census, I do not have front page and can't remember how I found it! oops... Would finding The front page be helpful to me?

 

The other problem I have is that I don't know James address circa 1920. His mother died in 1909, at which stage James (shed 6) and his 2 sisters were 'taken in' by their Aunt. Unfortunately she died in 1911, his sisters were immediately withdrawn from school and put into Dingle Lane home for girls in Liverpool - one of them, Rose, was my grandmother.

The likelihood is that James will also have been withdrawn from school and admitted to a boys home. Unfortunately records are not available either online or at Liverpool Archives at Liverpool library.

 

Thanks again for information - much appreciated.

 

Lin

[Matlock1418]

26 minutes ago, Alpineted said:

It is 1921 census, I do not have front page and can't remember how I found it! oops... Would finding The front page be helpful to me?

They might.

If you have bought the image from Find My Past then you should be able to see other thumbnail pages somewhere on/from the actual entry image page - basically showing where and what district & other details leading to the entry [as best I can recall without going into things more fully]

M

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Alpineted said:

The likelihood is that James will also have been withdrawn from school and admitted to a boys home.

He looks to me in your photo to be an ‘Enlisted Boy’ entrant.  These were a category of recruit permitted in the infantry and other combatant arms in small numbers from age 14 providing that they met physical requirements and had the written permission of parent, or guardian (the latter included industrial and board school authorities).

Such Boy soldiers were generally a mixture of the sons of servicemen, orphans from board and industrial schools, and a very few who genuinely wished to enlist at as young age as was permissible.  Orphans were common because there were always pressures upon their guardians to find them good employment, and jobs with accommodation included freed up beds so that more orphans could then be taken in.

The Army and Royal Navy were seen as good prospects in offering a potential full career with opportunities for advancement provided the boy was keen and diligent.  The boys could enlist as either, musicians in the band or corps of drums (separate categories), or as artisans.  The latter were also divided into two, shoemakers and tailors, and in each case trained by a sergeant qualified to Master standard in that trade.  Upon reaching the age of 18 the boys were re categorised as men and posted to a service company. 

However, to justify the effort and outlay entailed in training, feeding and accommodating the boys they were obliged to sign lengthy contracts whilst still at a very young age, and this led to controversy many decades later when the matter was examined and debated in Parliament. 

Edited 26 April by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

Image courtesy of Find My Past

[Alpineted]

5 hours ago, Alpineted said:

Thank you for the link, I have had a quick scan and will look into this properly this evening. This looks very promising.

It is 1921 census, I do not have front page and can't remember how I found it! oops... Would finding The front page be helpful to me?

 

The other problem I have is that I don't know James address circa 1920. His mother died in 1909, at which stage James (shed 6) and his 2 sisters were 'taken in' by their Aunt. Unfortunately she died in 1911, his sisters were immediately withdrawn from school and put into Dingle Lane home for girls in Liverpool - one of them, Rose, was my grandmother.

The likelihood is that James will also have been withdrawn from school and admitted to a boys home. Unfortunately records are not available either online or at Liverpool Archives at Liverpool library.

 

Thanks again for information - much appreciated.

 

Lin

(shed 6) = (aged 6)

[Alpineted]

3 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

Image courtesy of Find My Past

Thank you for this Allan, looks like this is the Census 1921 schedule for the 1st battalion Cheshire Regiment - would the equivalent of war diaries been completed during 1921? If so, is it possible to access them? 

[Alpineted]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

He looks to me in your photo to be an ‘Enlisted Boy’ entrant.  These were a category of recruit permitted in the infantry and other combatant arms in small numbers from age 14 providing that they met physical requirements and had the written permission of parent, or guardian (the latter included industrial and board school authorities).

Such Boy soldiers were generally a mixture of the sons of servicemen, orphans from board and industrial schools, and a very few who genuinely wished to enlist at as young age as was permissible.  Orphans were common because there were always pressures upon their guardians to find them good employment, and jobs with accommodation included freed up beds so that more orphans could then be taken in.

The Army and Royal Navy were seen as good prospects in offering a potential full career with opportunities for advancement provided the boy was keen and diligent.  The boys could enlist as either, musicians in the band or corps of drums (separate categories), or as artisans.  The latter were also divided into two, shoemakers and tailors, and in each case trained by a sergeant qualified to Master standard in that trade.  Upon reaching the age of 18 the boys were re categorised as men and posted to a service company. 

However, to justify the effort and outlay entailed in training, feeding and accommodating the boys they were obliged to sign lengthy contracts whilst still at a very young age, and this led to controversy many decades later when the matter was examined and debated in Parliament. 

Thank you very much for this Frogsmile, what you say is very interesting and does fit in with James being orphaned and admitted to a home or industrial school in 1911, when he was aged 8 and then enlisted to the Army. If that was when he was 14, the date would be 1917. Do you know if a register exists that shows boy soldiers recruited in this way? and if so, is it possible to access it? 
 

Interestingly, James became a semi-professional musical entertainer in his adult years (I had heard that he was a singer, I do not know if he played a musical instrument as well) - I wonder if this was as a result of him being enlisted as a musician  - this, of course could be a complete coincidence. 

I attach James' marriage certificate, which shows he married in 1923, his occupation is shown as Groom, I do not know if that related to his duty whilst in The Cheshire Regiment or if he had left the Army by then?

This mystery (about James and his Army service) is getting more and more mysterious - I have just noticed that James' age is shown as 22 on his marriage certificate - he was born in 1903, the address for him and Martha is correct, as is the name and occupation of his father James Johnson, so the marriage certificate details are all correct, apart from his age!! 
 

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, Alpineted said:

Do you know if a register exists that shows boy soldiers recruited in this way? and if so, is it possible to access it? 

There was no central register of Boy Entrants that I’ve ever heard of, you have to understand that each regiment operated individually.  A French General once said there’s no such thing as the British Army, it is more a loose confederation of different regiments, and there was some truth in that.  The culture was lineally stretching back to the feudal system.  The details of the circumstances of his enlistment were in his service record and 5/6th of those were destroyed in the Arnside Street bombing raid of 1941.  It’s a matter of whether his record was among the 1/6th that survived, albeit some of those too are fire and smoke damaged.

A lot of former Army musicians continued to entertain after leaving the Army.  A famous Boy Army musician who subsequently became an entertainer was the comedy actor Norman Wisdom, who started as a Boy Bandsman in the Infantry but after a year transferred in the same category to a cavalry regiment band that was short of the right number playing his instrument**.

** apparently this swapping bandsmen around according to the instrument that they played was common, with bandmasters wheeling and dealing to keep their various ensembles up-to-strength (there was a recognised establishment for musical instruments). 

 

Edited 27 April by FROGSMILE

[Alpineted]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There was no central register of Boy Entrants that I’ve ever heard of, you have to understand that each regiment operated individually.  A French General once said there’s no such thing as the British Army, it is more a loose confederation of different regiments, and there was some truth in that.  The culture was lineally stretching back to the feudal system.  The details of the circumstances of his enlistment were in his service record and 5/6th of those were destroyed in the Arnside Street bombing raid of 1941.  It’s a matter of whether his record was among the 1/6th that survived, albeit some of those too are fire and smoke damaged.

Thank you, you have given me an idea. I believe that there is a Cheshire Regiment Museum in Chester. I should be able to find an email address and ask them if they have a register of boy entrants for that time period - please keep your fingers crossed, I will update forum if and when I get a reply.

 

Thanks to everyone who has helped me with this research and for passing on valuable and new information to me. I really appreciate the support.

 

Lin

[Alpineted]

 Wow re Norman Wisdom, I am learning so much on this forum and enjoying the interesting information  being given to me . Thanks again

Lin

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Alpineted said:

Thank you, you have given me an idea. I believe that there is a Cheshire Regiment Museum in Chester. I should be able to find an email address and ask them if they have a register of boy entrants for that time period - please keep your fingers crossed, I will update forum if and when I get a reply.

 

Thanks to everyone who has helped me with this research and for passing on valuable and new information to me. I really appreciate the support.

 

Lin

You’re very welcome.  It will be interesting to learn of anything that you find/uncover Lin. 

[Allan1892]

13 hours ago, Alpineted said:

would the equivalent of war diaries been completed during 1921?

I really don't know. I presume that some sort of regimental log would have been kept but to what detail??

[Madmeg]

This is James Johnson living with Joseph and Mary ann Tyson in 1911, sisters Rose b 1897 and Ellin b1900?

Just to confirm a date before he joined up, ie after 1911 census

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

I really don't know. I presume that some sort of regimental log would have been kept but to what detail??

War Diaries were only obligatory during war Lin.  They were to be kept up by unit Adjutants as part of their duties and were a considerable commitment when the unit was busy, although intended to be quite brief and clinical, with mentions of names confined to officers plus anyone who was commended for gallantry, etc.  By 1921 there was no such formal requirement.

[Alpineted]

5 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

I really don't know. I presume that some sort of regimental log would have been kept but to what detail??

Thanks Allan, I will ask about Regimental log when I email Cheshire Regiment museum. 

I will also email the Archive section at Liverpool library, to see if they hold records of this nature

[Alpineted]

4 hours ago, Madmeg said:

This is James Johnson living with Joseph and Mary ann Tyson in 1911, sisters Rose b 1897 and Ellin b1900?

Just to confirm a date before he joined up, ie after 1911 census

Yes, Rose was my grandmother - she was born in 1898 and Aunt Nell ('Ellin') was born in 1900. 

 

James, Rose and Ellen went to live with 'aunt Ann Tyson' (who was their father's sister) after their mother (Rosina) died in 1909. 

Unfortunately, within weeks of the 1911 census Ann Tyson died. My Grandmother and Aunt were withdrawn from school and admitted to Dingle Lane home for girls in Liverpool. 

James was probably admitted to a boys home, I cannot find an entry for him online (that may say more about me, rather than internet!), His earlier schools were Sherlock St and At Peter's C of E, both in the Everton district of Liverpool. I did visit Liverpool library, archives dept to check original  admission registers for several boys homes, though unfortunately some of the registers for 1911 were too fragile to be viewed and I was unable to find an entry for him.

When I found the photograph of James in uniform I was shocked, I could not understand how / why a young man would enlist, knowing how his brother George died and that his brother William was wounded by gas shell (severe) - that is why the earlier comments from Frogsmile about 'enlisted boy entrants' are so interesting and make sense, as to how he may have joined  the Army. 

Thank you Madmeg.

 

[Alpineted]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

War Diaries were only obligatory during war Lin.  They were to be kept up by unit Adjutants as part of their duties and were a considerable commitment when the unit was busy, although intended to be quite brief and clinical, with mentions of names confined to officers plus anyone who was commended for gallantry, etc.  By 1921 there was no such formal requirement.

Thank you Frogsmile, that will save me some 'unsuccessful searching time'!

[Madmeg]

Just an idea but have you tried looking for James cousins as well? Oliver Tyson is a more distinctive name to find than James Johnson. I don't have it in front of me right now but weren't the Tyson grandchildren also there with no parents? So if grandma died grandpa may not have been able to cope with them all and you might find clues by following the more easily searched for Tyson cousins?

[Madmeg]

Ok had another look and the Tysons were the children of rather than grandchildren, my bad, Oliver is a few years older than James all the rest are working, but it still might help to see where Oliver went?

[Alpineted]

4 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Ok had another look and the Tysons were the children of rather than grandchildren, my bad, Oliver is a few years older than James all the rest are working, but it still might help to see where Oliver went?

I would not even thought of that approach, thank you - it will help me to broaden my thinking for the future.

Just carried out a search for Oliver and in  1921 census he is living with his brother Peter Tyson and their family at Hartnup Street, Liverpool - I think he is likely to have gone there upon the death of his mum Ann Tyson. 

 As I say, your suggestion is helpful to me, because it encourages me to search 'beyond the obvious ' and I am sure I will use this approach again in the future, for future family members. Thanks again.

 

[Madmeg]

Reading between the lines. Your relatives went to stay with aunt after parents died. Then when aunty died , uncle ( who is getting on) can't cope so the girls go to a home. But I think it is a family of all boys, so possibly James might have stayed with them, ie managing the girls would have been difficult but another boy maybe not so, maybe. Just thinking if possibilities, you say you cannot find him entering a boys home, so could it be that he didn't, that he stayed with the Tysons for a few more years? School records might be the better bet if they are available.

Other options would be to follow up with the older brothers and see if he maybe turns up at a school where the were living. And ? Dad? Was he already dead by then? 

I have Johnsons as well, so I feel your pain trying to track him down. And between census is very difficult as well.