Private James Johnson Cheshire Regiment circa 1920 - help please

[Madmeg]

Struggling to find the family in 1901 on FMP? The only Rose I can find was born 1892 and father was William. Just trying to get a bit more info on them to try and see what I can think of. Can't find the Tysons in 1921 either.

There are some photographs of st Peter's school online, sorry unable to share the link from my tablet. Yoliverpool is the site.

[Alpineted]

9 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Struggling to find the family in 1901 on FMP? The only Rose I can find was born 1892 and father was William. Just trying to get a bit more info on them to try and see what I can think of. Can't find the Tysons in 1921 either.

There are some photographs of st Peter's school online, sorry unable to share the link from my tablet. Yoliverpool is the site.

Here is a copy of the census for Johnson Family in 1901, not sure if I got this from FMP or Ancestry... they lived at 8 Rothsay Street. 

Thanks for details of Yoliverpool - I will have a good look at it later. 

[Alpineted]

20 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Ok had another look and the Tysons were the children of rather than grandchildren, my bad, Oliver is a few years older than James all the rest are working, but it still might help to see where Oliver went?

 

11 hours ago, Madmeg said:

Reading between the lines. Your relatives went to stay with aunt after parents died. Then when aunty died , uncle ( who is getting on) can't cope so the girls go to a home. But I think it is a family of all boys, so possibly James might have stayed with them, ie managing the girls would have been difficult but another boy maybe not so, maybe. Just thinking if possibilities, you say you cannot find him entering a boys home, so could it be that he didn't, that he stayed with the Tysons for a few more years? School records might be the better bet if they are available.

Other options would be to follow up with the older brothers and see if he maybe turns up at a school where the were living. And ? Dad? Was he already dead by then? 

I have Johnsons as well, so I feel your pain trying to track him down. And between census is very difficult as well.

James' father was alive, he remarried in 1910... James and his sisters initially lived with their father and step mother - but soon went to live with James 'senior' sister Mary Ann Tyson.

James was admitted to St Peter's school in the Everton district of Liverpool on 9th August 1909.

His mother Rosina (Rose Johnson) died on 21st August 1909 - on 1st October James was moved from St Peter's to Sherlock Street school on 1st October 1909. School records do not exist either online or original records at the  Archive department, Liverpool library. 

The 1911 census of England was taken on 2nd April. Mary Ann Tyson was buried on 14th April 1911. James' sisters Rose and Ellen were withdrawn from St Peter's school and transferred to Dingle Lane Home on 13th April 1911 (see attached). 
 

James is likely (I think) to have moved to a boys home around the same date as his sisters were moved to Dingle Lane Home. It is so unfortunate that some of the records for boys homes in Liverpool are too fragile to view. The more I think of it, the more likely I feel that James was admitted to a home and then enlisted at about age 14 to the 1st Battalion of The Cheshire Regiment.

However, he must have left the Army before June 1923 - as his marriage to Martha Ellis was on 29th June 1923. His occupation is shown as Groom. If he was still in the Army, surely there would have been specific mention of The Cheshire Regiment? How does that fit in with the long service commitments that child recruits were expected to sign up for?

I am just hoping that The Cheshire Museum or  Liverpool library may hold some records. 
 

Thanks again to all forum members for your help.

Madmeg, we both share the pain of searching for such a popular name - fingers crossed for both of us!

Lin

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Alpineted said:

If he was still in the Army, surely there would have been specific mention of The Cheshire Regiment? How does that fit in with the long service commitments that child recruits were expected to sign up for?

Yes, he would indeed usually be recorded as a ‘soldier’, Lin.  Enlisted Boy Entrants could purchase their discharge, but although not completely exorbitant the cost was usually out of their reach unless paid for by parents, or some other source. 

Edited 28 April by FROGSMILE

[Madmeg]

I've had a quick look at the medal cards but havent gone far with them. could he have signed up in the last year of the war ( with or without altering his date of birth) , and then been demobilised or stayed on. Just enough time to have his picture in a uniform. Of course there is that 1921 possible finding as well. The man there is supposedly too old to be him but if he lied about his age then that would be the age he was stuck with from then on as far as the army was concerned. The medal cards sometimes have an address to send the medals to on the back so it could be worth checking them? If nothing else it would eliminate soldiers numbers for the James Johnsons who AREN'T him. Try Paul Nixons site to give you an idea of when numbers were issued as you could also ignore those who had numbers given in the early stages of the war and just focus on any that were later.

A torturous process I'm afraid, but you are obviously no stranger to digging through records from the documentation you have kindly supplied above.

[Alpineted]

16 minutes ago, Madmeg said:

I've had a quick look at the medal cards but havent gone far with them. could he have signed up in the last year of the war ( with or without altering his date of birth) , and then been demobilised or stayed on. Just enough time to have his picture in a uniform. Of course there is that 1921 possible finding as well. The man there is supposedly too old to be him but if he lied about his age then that would be the age he was stuck with from then on as far as the army was concerned. The medal cards sometimes have an address to send the medals to on the back so it could be worth checking them? If nothing else it would eliminate soldiers numbers for the James Johnsons who AREN'T him. Try Paul Nixons site to give you an idea of when numbers were issued as you could also ignore those who had numbers given in the early stages of the war and just focus on any that were later.

A torturous process I'm afraid, but you are obviously no stranger to digging through records from the documentation you have kindly supplied above.

I have not heard about Paul Nixons site, would you be able to let me have an address please. 
 

I am ok at digging for ‘civilian records’, but I have a very poor success rate with military records… I have membership of FMP, Ancestry, MyHeritage,  Forces War Records, TNA  - I just cannot seem to get any results from FWR at all… I realise this is me at fault, but whatever I try, I fail. 
 

I am particularly interested to find out more about my great uncle Bill’s service in the RFA service number L/24332 William Henry Johnson, born in 1891, he was one of James brothers .. I was hoping to send a post about him today, but time I had planned for that has been taken up with James. 
Hopefully I will be able to make a post about uncle Bill in the next few days, I want to send a few emails re James - as promised earlier on in this post, as I had promised to do and I will keep you all updated as to my progress. 
 

Thanks again for your help, much appreciated. 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

In many instances, Paul is looking at pre-war enlistments and their service numbers, so less likely to apply to this scenario, as there is no way he could have enlisted prior to July 1916.

If the archive has the Army Form 358 enlistment book, they could provide a bit more info. 
https://cheshiremilitarymuseum.org.uk/archives/ 

[Keith_history_buff]

Enlistment books from 1920 onwards
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/214248-attestation-books-where-they-were-sent-by-the-modnat-archives/

[Madmeg]

Have a look at the longlongtrail.co.uk Chris Bakers site which has some good hints and tips.

Paul Nixon has armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com and a number ber of articles on findmy past. Paul's britisharmyancestors.co.uk site is much more friendly to search for possible medal cards than ancestry or national archives. Of course only if James did serve in the war but Paul has lists post war as well...

Edited 28 April by Madmeg

[Madmeg]

Following the links from Paul's site to William Henry's record it looks like James and his wife to be were living with William henry at the time of their marriage, 57 Potter street. There are addresses in hoylake for sister (g? ) m Johnson and sister e Johnson in Australia.  And a record I don't understand from st Louis USA for william Henry as well. A letter from Emily Johnson regarding brother George and ? M? , says he is safe and well.

Heaps on William henry with references to other family members.

Sorry  got to get ready for work so will leave it there.

Ps forces war records is pretty useless, just indexes of other indexes from my experience.

Edited 28 April by Madmeg

[Alpineted]

9 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

In many instances, Paul is looking at pre-war enlistments and their service numbers, so less likely to apply to this scenario, as there is no way he could have enlisted prior to July 1916.

If the archive has the Army Form 358 enlistment book, they could provide a bit more info. 
https://cheshiremilitarymuseum.org.uk/archives/ 

Thank you for the link Keith, I will complete request form and post today. As soon as I receive a reply I will update forum. 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

I think it is worth asking them to confirm whether they do indeed have the Army Form 358 Enlistment Book, and if they can provide an image of his details from the book, for an administrative fee.

[Alpineted]

9 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Enlistment books from 1920 onwards
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/214248-attestation-books-where-they-were-sent-by-the-modnat-archives/

This link is also helpful, I will await reply from Cheshire Regiment and if this brings a 'Nik result', I have this list to work my way through, thank you - much appreciated.

[Alpineted]

18 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I think it is worth asking them to confirm whether they do indeed have the Army Form 358 Enlistment Book, and if they can provide an image of his details from the book, for an administrative fee.

Good 👍 idea Keith, I will do that today - thank you

[Alpineted]

On 26/04/2024 at 14:22, Allan1892 said:

The census image that you have posted looks like a 1921 Census image. If it is, he has declared his age as 18 years 11 months. As the 1921 Census was taken on the 19th June 1921, working back over for 18 years 11 months gives a birth date circa July 1902

Help! - I am trying to find the census record that has been shown earlier for the 1921 census 1st battalion Cheshire Regiment. I have spent more than an hour looking online without success. I cannot remember how I accessed the page with James' entry or the front page for 1st Battalion Cheshire Regiment in County Wicklow.
I am looking for a needle in a haystack really, trying to find out if the James Johnson listed is indeed my relative. I am trying a shot in the dark really - I noted that James Johnson's best man was George McKie born (as George Baxter) in 1903 in Kelton Parish, Kirkendbrightshire.... his stepfather was David Charles McKie and he was a police constable - that family's address on the 1911 census is 11 Scholar Street, West Derby, Liverpool. 
I have searched the 1921 census for a George McKie (and George Baxter) born in 1903 and I get no results found.. putting two and two together and perhaps getting 5, I wonder if George may have joined/met James in the Cheshire Regiment in County Wicklow - and remained friends? 

I would be grateful if someone could remind me how to get to the correct census (I have even tried to find James entry again without success!), send me a link if possible - or even find the elusive George McKie

 

Thank you

 

Lin 

 

PS Madmeg, you will be proud of me thinking creatively and 'outside of the box' - problem is, now I am outside it, I cannot find my way back!! ***

 

On 26/04/2024 at 21:08, Alpineted said:

Thank you for this Allan, looks like this is the Census 1921 schedule for the 1st battalion Cheshire Regiment - would the equivalent of war diaries been completed during 1921? If so, is it possible to access them? 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Link to 1921 census transcription. I got there via the distinctly named Stanley Raymond Jordan
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1921/RG15/28129/0441/13

  

[Alpineted]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Link to 1921 census transcription. I got there via the distinctly named Stanley Raymond Jordan
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC/1921/RG15/28129/0441/13

  

That is a great help Keith - I will look for George McKie now, a long shot, but you never know

Thank you

[Keith_history_buff]

If George McKie was born in West Derby in 1911, and James Johnson was living in Everton in 1901, could they not have met at school? Both of these places are not a million miles from each other.

[Keith_history_buff]

Scholar Street (in Wavertree?) was demolished some time ago, but had a postcode of L7 4JR. It ran off Smithdown Road
On the other side there are Whittier Street and Wendell Street which remain to this day.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18.0&lat=53.39742&lon=-2.94556&layers=168&right=BingRoad

[Keith_history_buff]

David Charles McKie is a parcel porter for the railway, and he is still at that address in 1921.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F17842%2F0157%2F03

[Alpineted]

29 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

If George McKie was born in West Derby in 1911, and James Johnson was living in Everton in 1901, could they not have met at school? Both of these places are not a million miles from each other.

I did wonder about that and checked admission and withdrawal school registers. James was at St Peter's C of E school and also Sherlock St school (as mentioned earlier, I don't know about schooling after April 1911 when his aunt Ann Tyson died) .

George was not born in Liverpool (may have been Scotland!) - he went to St Silas C of E primary school and then Earl Road.

 

So, I am pretty sure that they did not know each other from school - this led me to the idea of the Army, worth a shot, but not found in same census in County Wicklow. 

Mind you, I can't find George anywhere in the 1921 census - so no further on at the moment, I am not going to give up though!

 

Thanks for your ideas 😀

 

Lin

 

[Keith_history_buff]

The nearest I can find, but the first name and age are incorrect, is John Johnson from Liverpool. 
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1911%2FRG14%2F09596%2F0032%2F29

St Nicholas Industrial School Manor Park East Ham, East Ham, London & Essex, England

I would have thought it more likely that he was born in Liverpool, and was orphaned in London, given there were Industrial Schools the length and breadth of the country.

[Alpineted]

17 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

David Charles McKie is a parcel porter for the railway, and he is still at that address in 1921.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F17842%2F0157%2F03

Sorry Keith, 

It is David Gibson McKie who was George's stepfather. 

David Charles is George's brother I think.

 

Sorry about the error

 

[Keith_history_buff]

McKie household, 11 Scholar Street, Wavertree, West Derby registration district
Image courtesy FindMyPast

[Keith_history_buff]

McKie household, 11 Scholar Street, Wavertree, West Derby registration district for the 1911 census
Image courtesy FindMyPast