Lumb In Rossendale

[Matlock1418]

36 minutes ago, Ian Fryer said:

I didn't know they conscripted women into the trenches...but see 2nd photo..she is wearing her husbands uniform!! 

I can't see a wedding ring - Possibly alternatively a sister [I think most likely - based on the family group] or girl-friend or fiancee [but can't see an engagement ring either]

To my eye the cap badge potentially has a central sphinx [?] - another for @FROGSMILE, or @CorporalPunishment or @Michelle Young I think.

M

Edit: I'm wondering if the cap badge could possibly be East Lancashire Regiment - the more I look at it, the more I convince myself it is. 

Oh BTW, the jacket is of the wartime modified/simplified/economy style [deeper unpleated pockets and without shoulder reinforcement].

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, Ian Fryer said:

Does the SWB  mean he was wounded & honourably discharged?

It means he was honorably discharged as no longer fit for service - hard to say if due to general poor fitness/illness discovered after recuitment or if due to accidental injury/wounding/illness attributed to or aggravated by service = Just no longer fit for service

M

[CorporalPunishment]

On 16/04/2024 at 12:00, Matlock1418 said:

To perhaps stimulate some discussion ...

I too can't really see well/comment authoritatively on his cap badge [but it certainly doesn't look like/isn't Artillery] or on his shoulder title [though title does look rather curved and possibly has one or two higher tiers = TF ??]

But what I can see are riding breeches [there's bound to be a proper military name] and I think I can see are reverse-wound puttees from top -> down, [c/w infantry who wound bottom -> up] which to me is definitely suggestive of an official mounted role such as cavalry [so possibly yeomanry ?? or mounted infantry ????]

Of course with a Lancashire connection one might think possibly The Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry but I think that may have had a straight DLOY title and/or a curved DofLANCASTERS or DofLANCASTERS with a higher tier Y title [though possibly datable variants?] ... if a web search is to be believed ?? 

Naturally I may be way off - I again await the likes of an expert such as @FROGSMILE 

 

The mounted soldier in post 9 is Army Service Corps to my eyes and his shoulder titles would be T over ASC over ??????????.      Pete.

 

Edited 17 April by CorporalPunishment

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

I didn't know they conscripted women into the trenches...but see 2nd photo..she is wearing her husbands uniform!! 

I'd agree with sister, this was considered a relatively common wheeze for women to dress in uniform as 'a bit of a lark'

A minor point but the SWB Badge Rolls show whether a soldier was discharged due to "Sickness" or "Wounds'

This page of the SWB Roll on Ancestry has a Percy Woodall listed (East Lancs) but there are lots of Woodalls on the Rolls.

Another observation this thread is getting a bit confusing (to me anyway) with the proliferation of different soldiers.

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

A minor point but the SWB Badge Rolls show whether a soldier was discharged due to "Sickness" or "Wounds'

Agreed Ken / a fair point about what was written on the SWB list but the categorisation of "Wounds" or "Sickness" under KR, Par 393 Para 392 xvi was a bit of a blunt tool as to the exact cause of No longer being fit tfor service [so I tried to expand the scope a bit in my explanation above - so as to avoid the OP just focussing on wounds] - one has to hope there are other records to identify / differentiate.

But first we need better identification of the individual(s).

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Another observation this thread is getting a bit confusing (to me anyway) with the proliferation of different soldiers.

Certainly I don't think you are alone in finding things getting a bit confusing - thread is definitely getting a bit crowded.

I think the common thread is intended by the to be about Lumb in Rossendale.  The WOODALL(s) seem but one aspect.

My further observation for all, given all the later additons, I think all respondents henceforth need to make sure they try to clearly identify about which photo they are replying to/commenting on!

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
strike/correct typos

[Ian Fryer]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

Agreed Ken / a fair point about what was written on the SWB list but the categorisation of "Wounds" or "Sickness" under KR, Par 393 xvi was a bit of a blunt tool as to the exact cause of No longer being fit tfor service [so I tried to expand the scope a bit in my explanation above - so as to avoid the OP just focussing on wounds] - one has to hope there are other records to identify / differentiate.

But first we need better identification of the individual(s).

Certainly I don't think you are alone in finding things getting a bit confusing - thread is definitely getting a bit crowded.

I think the common thread is intended by the to be about Lumb in Rossendale.  The WOODALL(s) seem but one aspect.

My further observation for all, given all the later additons, I think all respondents henceforth need to make sure they try to clearly identify about which photo they are replying to/commenting on!

M

Thanks KEN & M...Sorry for "over loading" I'm simply trying to sort out the WOODALL'S from Lumb In Rossendale & its like a fascinating jig saw puzzle.

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

 

The mounted soldier in post 9 is Army Service Corps to my eyes and his shoulder titles would be T over ASC over ??????????.      Pete.

 

Yes I think you’re right that it’s ASC.  If the association is still with Rossendale then it’s likely an East Lancashire unit.  There is a thread about 42nd Div war diaries here: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/302304-war-diaries-42nd-east-lancashire-division-asc-companies/

 

Edited 17 April by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

6 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The mounted soldier in post 9 is Army Service Corps to my eyes and his shoulder titles would be T over ASC over ??????????.   

Though the star of his cap badge is not clear it does visually seem pretty round and I would now think it is possibly/probably more likely ASC than my earlier discussion point punt at DoLOY [with its prominent crown].

In post 14 Seated soldier with child and wife - gone up a rank or few - I earlier commented that he does seem to have ASC driver style reversed puttees, spurs and footguards [though I still struggle with his shoulder title]

Same chap??

M

[CorporalPunishment]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Though the star of his cap badge is not clear it does visually seem pretty round and I would now think it is possibly/probably more likely ASC than my earlier discussion point punt at DoLOY [with its prominent crown].

In post 14 Seated soldier with child and wife - gone up a rank or few - I earlier commented that he does seem to have ASC driver style reversed puttees, spurs and footguards [though I still struggle with his shoulder title]

Same chap??

M

It's hard to tell if it's the same man but there are similar facial features. The shoulder title in the seated photo is hard to make out.      Pete.

[Matlock1418]

21 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

It's hard to tell if it's the same man but there are similar facial features.

I have to say without/even seeing their head photos side by side it is very hard for me, but I think I have some sizable doubts at the moment [though I am not very good at such recognitions and have most certainly been known to be wrong in the past! ]

   

21 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The shoulder title in the seated photo is hard to make out

Isn't it just!

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
add

[CorporalPunishment]

22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I have to say without/even seeing their head photos side by side it is very hard for me, but I think I have some sizable doubts at the moment [though I am not very good at such recognitions and have most certainly been known to be wrong in the past! ]

   

Isn't it just!

M

Looking at the side by side photos I now think it is the same man. The nose, the ears, the dimpled chin, even the philtrum look the same. Assuming there's about four years between the photos and he has filled out a bit in the face then I would call it a match.      Pete.

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Looking at the side by side photos I now think it is the same man. The nose, the ears, the dimpled chin, even the philtrum look the same. Assuming there's about four years between the photos and he has filled out a bit in the face then I would call it a match.

I thought so at first but later began to have doubts [and still do I think - but as I said ...]

 Philtrum - I had to look that one up! 

M

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Assuming there's about four years between the photos and he has filled out a bit in the face then I would call it a match.

If it is him - I think there may have been more than four years - he'd done alright going up in his rank

M

Edited 17 April by Matlock1418
grammar(ish!)

[CorporalPunishment]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I thought so at first but later began to have doubts [and still do I think - but as I said ...]

 Philtrum - I had to look that one up! 

M

[Ian Fryer]

6 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Thanks very much for going to so much trouble.I initially suggested the later photo. might be the same as the mounted soldier( who I know for certain is GEORGE WOODALL)...because I thought the jawline &  the straight,determined mouth was very distinctive in both images?    IF the soldier in the later shot is GEORGE WOODALL,then  I thought the  other chap (surely his brother,)might be WILLIAM WOODALL,but he cant be as he was only a Lance Corporal when he died in Oct.1917. Where can I find out about PERCY WOODALL & other members of this interesting family? IAN

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, Ian Fryer said:

M   Very many thanks to AndrewSid & To FROGSMILE for your help!!    FROSMILE,on the photograph of the 11 soldiers(perhaps a football team!) are the men in the KINGS Liverpool the two tallest on the front row & the chap 2nd left on the back row? The only name I have for certain is the mounted soldier who is GEORGE WOODALL. Looking at the 4 photographs I sent earlier of the 2 "brothers",now, I don't think they are the WOODALLS(unless of course there might have been more than TWO Woodall brothers!)  The only other card with a name on (just "WOODALL")is on the back of one of these 4 cards...I wonder if this could be Lance.Corp. WILLIAM WOODALL who was 35 when he died in Oct 1917...BUT, he only served for a few months & this soldier has proudly acquired quite a few medals ?? IAN

To answer your question, all four of the men wearing a badge of the prancing horse (a Hanoverian emblem) are of the King’s (Liverpool) Regiment.

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Ian Fryer said:

Thanks very much for going to so much trouble.I initially suggested the later photo. might be the same as the mounted soldier( who I know for certain is GEORGE WOODALL)...because I thought the jawline &  the straight,determined mouth was very distinctive in both images?    IF the soldier in the later shot is GEORGE WOODALL,then  I thought the  other chap (surely his brother,)might be WILLIAM WOODALL,but he cant be as he was only a Lance Corporal when he died in Oct.1917. Where can I find out about PERCY WOODALL & other members of this interesting family? IAN

The two staff sergeants of the ASC have some interesting features.  One wears a brass crown as part of his rank badge, and one a cloth crown.  Both men have shorts that are unusually cut to expose more of their thighs than I’ve seen with most before.  One of them has a wound stripe.  Both are wearing a sword belt and carriage under their jackets with the two slings clipped together.  

In the other photo showing the greyback shirt with rolled sleeves and neatly closed at the neck, there is a good view of his privately purchased waist belt fitted with leather pockets in which to carry his valuables.

[Matlock1418]

Some more side by side mug-shots for comparison - Abstracted from above posts - no new Copyright created

                                        
                                                  The original mounted from PC

                                                    [I.e. seemingly George]

M

 

[Ian Fryer]

26 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Some more side by side mug-shots for comparison - Abstracted from above posts - no new Copyright created

                                        
                                                  The original mounted from PC

                                                    [I.e. seemingly George]

M

 

 

[Ian Fryer]

M Thanks for those blow ups…they strengthen my view that the soldier in  the studio shots is George Woodall. The eyes didn’t look the same but on horseback in 1911 he is squinting .. it looks a quite bright day! On the 2nd blow up,the ears match as does the jaw line with the noticeable dimple!