Ian Fryer Posted 15 April Share Posted 15 April I have quite a few photographs of WW1 soldiers who seem to come from of Lumb In Rossendale. They all seem to have enlisted in the East Lancashire Regiment , but which brigade/ division are they likely to have been seconded ? The only surname I’m certain of is WOODALL …I think brothers George & William . Thanks IAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 15 April Admin Share Posted 15 April Welcome to the GWF If new to researching soldiers of the Great War we always suggest you study the information on the Long Long Trail This is the page for the East Lancashire Regiment https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/east-lancashire-regiment/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fryer Posted 15 April Author Share Posted 15 April Thanks KEN for quick response & welcome! Regards Ian Fryer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 15 April Share Posted 15 April 1 hour ago, Ian Fryer said: The only surname I’m certain of is WOODALL …I think brothers George & William Welcome to GWF. You don't reveal your source(s) or other details of the WOODALLs - if you can please offer more it might help to avoid a punt like this ... William WOODALL, 203643, Lancashire Fusiliers https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/465250/william-woodall Also two pension index cards at Western Front Association / Fold3 - Widow: Eleanor Maude, b.3.1.82. Children: Florence b.30.6.02, Ernest b.17.6.01 and Frank, b.6.6.15 ??? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 15 April Share Posted 15 April Ian, Plenty of help available here but as stated we need a little more. Lumb is deep in the catchment area for the East Lancs Regiment. Is it a group photograph or individual portraits. Decoding any battalion and higher formation ID will require some detective work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fryer Posted 16 April Author Share Posted 16 April 8 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Welcome to GWF. You don't reveal your source(s) or other details of the WOODALLs - if you can please offer more it might help to avoid a punt like this ... William WOODALL, 203643, Lancashire Fusiliers https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/465250/william-woodall Also two pension index cards at Western Front Association / Fold3 - Widow: Eleanor Maude, b.3.1.82. Children: Florence b.30.6.02, Ernest b.17.6.01 and Frank, b.6.6.15 ??? M Thanks very much M. .That is so much more information than I expected! One of the photographs shows a mounted soldier. It is a used stamped postcard & is from (I think)"GEORGE" to his brother W.(WILLIAM) WOODALL No,8 Finchclough Lumb In Rossendale Lancs.. He writes to tell his brother he is at Delphinholme (which I know is near Lancaster) for the next 2 weeks. The post card is stamped LANCASTER Au 28 11. I strongly suspect,that a lot of the other photographs will be be of family members. I could send you a scan of the card(?) Thanks again IAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 16 April Admin Share Posted 16 April 32 minutes ago, Ian Fryer said: I could send you a scan of the card(?) Thanks again IAN You could post the photographs here. The service record of William Woodall has survived in the 'burnt records' . He was aged 34 years on mobilisation in September 1916 and living at number 1 Pinchclough (shown as number 8 on the CWGC reference). Widow as above. To BEF and France 7th March 1917, originally posted missing during Third Ypres his body was recovered at Passchendaele and identified by an identity disc. They had four children, Annie, Florrie, Ernest and Frank the last born in 1915. Unfortunately record is incomplete so brother not referenced. As your postcard is dated 1911 and mentions two weeks this infers George Wwas in the Territorial Force and at a summer camp. There is in the records a George Woodall 2712,889630 Bombardier Royal Field Artillery who would have been involved with horses. As always it's best to sort out the basic genealogy before embarking on the military records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April (edited) 53 minutes ago, Ian Fryer said: That is so much more information than I expected! One of the photographs shows a mounted soldier. It is a used stamped postcard & is from (I think)"GEORGE" to his brother W.(WILLIAM) WOODALL No,8 Finchclough Lumb In Rossendale Lancs.. Remiss of me to not include the address of 1 Pinch Clough, Lumb from the initial dependant's pension index card [as I was typing Ken has also mentioned from his SR] and 3 New Garden Fields, Lumb, from the rear of the later card [c.16 Apr 1931] 53 minutes ago, Ian Fryer said: He writes to tell his brother he is at Delphinholme (which I know is near Lancaster) for the next 2 weeks. The post card is stamped LANCASTER Au 28 11. So posted 28 August 1911 - along with his age and 3/5th Bn., LF seems to show to me that he was a Territorial back then. His 203643 number seems likely to be a later TF renumbering from 1917. Edit Re-read your post and the sender = It was George who was a Territorial [I am reading the two weeks as being George's TF Annual Camp] - Re-reading your post Ken, I note you came to the same conclusion 53 minutes ago, Ian Fryer said: I could send you a scan of the card(?) Please do - both sides. 29 minutes ago, kenf48 said: The service record of William Woodall has survived in the 'burnt records' For the OP: 'Burnt records' are the WO 363 series of commonly fire & water damaged service records that survived the WW2 bombing/fire of the Arnside Street record store in London. Typically found on Ancestry and Find My Past [subscription sites - sometimes there can be free public access via a UK public library]. Should make more of his service clearer perhaps before the war but certainly during it given the list of family members 29 minutes ago, kenf48 said: They had four children, Annie, Florrie, Ernest and Frank Annie is not mentioned on the PIC - but that's not surprising as, assuming/seeming that the list is in ascending age order, she was likely 16+ and thus not eligible for a child's pension allowance M Edited 16 April by Matlock1418 strike/correct & add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fryer Posted 16 April Author Share Posted 16 April KEN,MATLOCK...This is the post card! I'm amazed you have turned up so much information! There are several photos of groups of soldiers,but its difficult to be certain of identification for individuals... Thanks IAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 16 April Admin Share Posted 16 April The mounted soldier does not appear to be in the RFA but the standing soldier does, he is wearing spurs so probably a driver when the photograph was taken but I don't do uniforms so will leave that to the more knowledgeable. As an aside you may find this newspaper article from the Manchester Courier dated June 5 1911 of interest. The date is out of sync with your postcard and I can't account for that, he may have been at a different annual camp at that location but gives an idea of what they were up to. (Image from BNA on FMP); of particular interest may be the report of the trouble they were having with the number of horses at Delphinholme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April (edited) 52 minutes ago, kenf48 said: The mounted soldier does not appear to be in the RFA but the standing soldier does, he is wearing spurs so probably a driver when the photograph was taken but I don't do uniforms so will leave that to the more knowledgeable. A call for @FROGSMILE I think [I believe he may be away from his usual haunt and so may take a while longer than usual to respond] But meantime, never being afraid to stick my neck out a bit, I think I see Royal Artillery and King's Liverpool Regt cap badges plus possibly some General Service buttons in lieu in the larger group photo. And I think the snake clasp leather belt might suggest TF. Now I await! M Edited 16 April by Matlock1418 add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fryer Posted 16 April Author Share Posted 16 April 2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: A call for @FROGSMILE I think [I believe he may be away from his usual haunt and so may take a while longer than usual to respond] But meantime, never being afraid to stick my neck out a bit, I think I see Royal Artillery and King's Liverpool Regt cap badges plus possibly some General Service buttons in lieu in the larger group photo. Now I await! M I hope you are correct about the King's Liverpool Regt. cap badges, as I had relatives in that! The newspaper article about Dolphinholme was fascinating....the amount of horses they used is spell binding!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April (edited) 2 hours ago, Ian Fryer said: To perhaps stimulate some discussion ... I too can't really see well/comment authoritatively on his cap badge [but it certainly doesn't look like/isn't Artillery] or on his shoulder title [though title does look rather curved and possibly has one or two higher tiers = TF ??] But what I can see are riding breeches [there's bound to be a proper military name] and I think I can see are reverse-wound puttees from top -> down, [c/w infantry who wound bottom -> up] which to me is definitely suggestive of an official mounted role such as cavalry [so possibly yeomanry ?? or mounted infantry ????] Of course with a Lancashire connection one might think possibly The Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry but I think that may have had a straight DLOY title and/or a curved DofLANCASTERS or DofLANCASTERS with a higher tier Y title [though possibly datable variants?] ... if a web search is to be believed ?? Naturally I may be way off - I again await the likes of an expert such as @FROGSMILE M Edited 16 April by Matlock1418 add Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fryer Posted 16 April Author Share Posted 16 April Just wondering IF the soldier on horseback in the 1911 photo.might be one of these 2 men?. Obviously taken several years later, but surely brothers? I wonder if its just possible that they are the WOODALL brothers?..any thoughts....IAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April Not sure if the horseback man is DoLoY. Some examples: Versus the man pictured in the thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April (edited) On 16/04/2024 at 13:03, Ian Fryer said: I'm not brilliant at face recognition however to me ... Top right photo [of two soldiers] the seated man seems to have a bit of a similarity to the mounted soldier ??? - I would comment that he has reversed putties [as also appears the case for all the other soldiers - suggesting mounted]. He has one wound stripe on his lower left arm. Top two photos have the feel of overseas in a warmer climate. As perhaps does the bottom right photo [single man - has a popular belt with small pouches - I feel FS will properly identify the style and likely take further from there] Bottom left soldier [with wife and child] is wearing riding breeches, spurs and ankle guards that would be worn by mounted soldiers [I think including RA Drivers, but not their fuller guard, so possibly Army Service Corps too ?? - shame his shoulder title is not clear, but rather a stretch for me to see ASC] - I think he has three overseas inverted chevrons on his lower right arm [looking like one lowest red for 1914 and two blue from later - so suggesting at least 2y 1d O/S service. [O/S need not have been continuous so it becomes harder to date]. However no medal ribbons showing so I believe at least pre-1917 [when the 1914 Star ribbon was issued - the BWM & VM came c.1920/21] As previously, I am a bit out of my usual comfort zone. M Edited 18 April by Matlock1418 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April 1 minute ago, AndrewSid said: Not sure if the horseback man is DoLoY. Some examples: I agree a DoLOY crown is not clear/prominent on the mounted soldier's photo ??? - I was just putting out there for discussion and you have kindly obliged! M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April (edited) 10 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: A call for @FROGSMILE I think [I believe he may be away from his usual haunt and so may take a while longer than usual to respond] But meantime, never being afraid to stick my neck out a bit, I think I see Royal Artillery and King's Liverpool Regt cap badges plus possibly some General Service buttons in lieu in the larger group photo. And I think the snake clasp leather belt might suggest TF. Now I await! M Yes, a mixture of the cap badges you identified, and the GS button badges mark members of Training Reserve (TR) battalions. The reserve battalions had previously worn regimental cap badges, so the photo seems to be a transitional image during the changeover to the new arrangement where men wore a simple button as cap insignia until posted via drafts of reinforcements, under an officer, to a regimentally badged battalion in the field. Edited 16 April by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 April Share Posted 16 April (edited) 8 hours ago, AndrewSid said: Not sure if the horseback man is DoLoY. Some examples: Versus the man pictured in the thread: They do indeed all appear to be Duke of Lancaster’s Own Yeomanry. Edited 16 April by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fryer Posted 17 April Author Share Posted 17 April M Very many thanks to AndrewSid & To FROGSMILE for your help!! FROSMILE,on the photograph of the 11 soldiers(perhaps a football team!) are the men in the KINGS Liverpool the two tallest on the front row & the chap 2nd left on the back row? The only name I have for certain is the mounted soldier who is GEORGE WOODALL. Looking at the 4 photographs I sent earlier of the 2 "brothers",now, I don't think they are the WOODALLS(unless of course there might have been more than TWO Woodall brothers!) The only other card with a name on (just "WOODALL")is on the back of one of these 4 cards...I wonder if this could be Lance.Corp. WILLIAM WOODALL who was 35 when he died in Oct 1917...BUT, he only served for a few months & this soldier has proudly acquired quite a few medals ?? IAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 17 April Share Posted 17 April (edited) 12 minutes ago, Ian Fryer said: are the men in the KINGS Liverpool the two tallest on the front row & the chap 2nd left on the back row? I'll answer - yes, three sitting on front row and one standing at rear - KLR prancing horse cap badges M Edited 17 April by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 17 April Share Posted 17 April (edited) 21 hours ago, Ian Fryer said: I see: A Queen's South Africa Medal and a King's South Africa Medal, both with two clasps, plus a 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal in the last photo. And he must have survived the war to get his 'trio' - photo dating to post c.1921 I would suggest [when the BWM & VM were awarded] - if serving in 1921 (ish) then, as would seem likely, his service record is quite likely to be with the MoD/en-route to the National Archive [and potentially still obtainable https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson] I can't make out his curved shoulder title in the last photo M Edited 18 April by Matlock1418 add link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fryer Posted 17 April Author Share Posted 17 April 4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: I'll answer - yes, three sitting on front row and one standing at rear - KLR prancing horse cap badges M 4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: I'll answer - yes, three sitting on front row and one standing at rear - KLR prancing horse cap badges M THANKS M ..i wasn't certain about the chap on the left at the front,but it is the prancing horse!! How cold is this message!!!! I didn't know they conscripted women into the trenches...but see 2nd photo..she is wearing her husbands uniform!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 17 April Share Posted 17 April 21 minutes ago, Ian Fryer said: Seated chap - That rather looks like a Silver War Badge on his right lapel [the official place to wear a SWB] M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fryer Posted 17 April Author Share Posted 17 April Im rather glad he is NOT William Woodall!!! Does the SWB mean he was wounded & honourably discharged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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