War Diaries - 42nd East Lancashire Division - ASC Companies

[sheilaelizabeth1951]

Hi, please could somebody point me in the right direction?

I'm looking for War Diaries for the East Lancs ASC Regiment. This concerns Frederick William Simpson T4/245374 who entered Theatre of War in Egypt on 25th September 1914.  I'm trying to find out whereabouts in Egypt he served and was he there for the entirity of the war,

 

many thanks to anyone who can help,

 

Sheila Cross 

 

[RussT]

The ASC were not a Regiment - they were a Corps i.e. the Army Service Corps.

His T/ prefix denotes a Horse Transport Company of the ASC and the 4, as in T4, denotes I think he joined when Kitchener was forming his 4th New Army.

The other part of his number denotes, I think (but not certain) that he was in the 42nd (East Lancashire) Division. What I mean to say is that he was in the East Lancs Division - it's just that I'm not certain whether his number automatically tells us that.

I understand the East Lancs ASC units were re-numbered at some time - it's likely he was with the 447th, 448th, 449th or 450th ASC Company within the 42nd (East Lancs) Divisional Train.

Army Service Corps Horse Transport Companies - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

Regards

Russ

EDIT: A correction for future reference. I said above that the T4/ prefix was allotted to ASC men joining Kitchener's 4th New Army and therefore speculated that he joined the ASC at that time. We learn later in this thread however that he actually joined the TF ASC in 1911 (East Lancs Division ASC) which has nothing whatsoever to do with war-raised New Armies. The conclusion is therefore that the T4/ prefix must have at least been used both for men joining during the raising of the 4th New Army in 1914+ and for the men in the TF Divisions who were re-numbered on 01/09/1916 when the ASC TF men were "transferred" wholesale from TF Terms and Conditions to Regular Army Terms & Conditions - see a later post in this thread for the relevant ACI.

 

[RussT]

Just to add that EEF War Diaries have yet to be digitised.

If you could get to The National Archives, I think this is the Item you would need to order:

Divisional Troops: 427 (1/1 East Lancs) Field Company Royal Engineers (1916 Jan - 1917... | The National Archives

Regards

Russ

[sheilaelizabeth1951]

Thanks so much Russ, I had presumed when it said Driver on his war record that he was a vehicle driver, which I suppose he still could have been. There are 2 numbers on his record card, the one I stated and T/545 so you're correct.

Kind regards

 

Sheila 

[RussT]

He might of ended up as a vehicle driver but he didn't start as one when he first joined, and was not one by end of 1916, otherwise his number would have been prefixed "M" for Mechanical Transport.

His number T/545 was his original Territorial Force number allotted to him when he first joined. The TF were re-numbered in early 1917 and he was given the new TF number T4/245374 at that time.

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

Further to my post above, I'm no longer quite sure I'm correct about the re-numbering being part of the TF re-numbering. I'm now thinking his re-numbering was in 01/09/1916 when he and the rest of the TF ASC were transferred to Regular Terms and Conditions - as per his Medal Rolls:

 

Regards

Russ

 

 

[sheilaelizabeth1951]

Thanks Russ,

 

All this is fascinating and I already know much more than I did.  The level and depth of your knowledge is amazing and I'm thrilled with the knowledge and the information in the link you sent.

 

Many thanks,

 

Sheila 

[RussT]

I can further add that it looks like he joined the TF in 1911, so a pre-war TF soldier.

Alexander Bower Campbell who had the original near number of T/512 and was later re-numbered to the near number T4/245371 joined the East Lancashire Division Transport and Supply Column, ASC, on 30/03/1911. I would conclude Simpson joined shortly afterwards.

Russ

[RussT]

A slight tangent but still relevant and it might be of general interest to others.

The record of Bertie Greenwood who had the near TF ASC number of T/549 (enlisted 28/09/1911) and was re-numbered to near number T4/245376 shows that he was re-numbered, upon being posted to the Regular ASC as per the others in the TF ASC, under the Army Council Instruction ACI/1677 of 1916 (01/09/1916).

A Forum search brings up some useful information/background and the actual ACI which explains it:

 

 

Regards

Russ

[sheilaelizabeth1951]

Many thanks Russ, your information is invaluable. I’m researching for my daughter-in-law (FW Simpson was her paternal grandfather) who is in possession of some medal like items.  Wonder if you or anyone else can give any information on these? Sorry, for some reason they’ve appeared as landscape, instead of portrait, hope you can still make them out.

Thanks again for all your help and advice

 

Sheila 

 

[RussT]

I've not seen anything like that before, and a Google image search does not return any matches.

I'm no expert on these matters but it looks like something called a sweetheart's badge or device to wear e.g. on a necklace. It was self-evidently made up whilst he was serving in Egypt. Perhaps these were the sort of trinkets being offered by the locals in the markets at the time and who would inscribe on the reverse details provided by the purchaser.

Perhaps someone else might come along and comment - you could, if you wish, create a new thread about it in the Medals Sub-Forum to try and attract experts there.

Regards

Russ

[sheilaelizabeth1951]

Thanks Russ, will do that

 

Sheila

[TullochArd]

As your relative was a pre-War TF soldier a good start point to his story might be to find where he was living in 1914.  TF soldiers did not travel far from their homes to Drill Halls in those days and that will maybe identify his company.  A fact long lost in most written records.   The East Lancashire Division Transport and Supply Column of 1914 was based at the following company locations:  

• Headquarters and Depot: Hulme Barracks, Manchester
• Headquarters Company: Hulme Barracks, Manchester
• Lancashire Fusiliers Brigade Company: Hulme Barracks, Manchester
• East Lancashire Brigade Company: Cloughfold, Rawtenstall. 
• Manchester Brigade Company: Hulme Barracks, Manchester

........ make my day ....... tell me he wasn't near Hulme Barracks, Manchester and was somewhere in the Cloughfold, Rawtenstall catchment area.

 

Edited 11 January , 2023 by TullochArd

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, sheilaelizabeth1951 said:

Wonder if you or anyone else can give any information on these?

 

As has been said it is a souvenir and a nice one at that.  I can add the star and crescent shown above the famous pyramids was an important component of the old, forgotten Egyptian flag at the time of your relative's stay.  The flag had variously transitioned from one star and a crescent to three stars and a crescent to three stars and three crescents by the time he was there.    

Edited 11 January , 2023 by TullochArd

[sheilaelizabeth1951]

Hi TullochArd,

Thank you for this, it’s great to see a photograph of the time. Frederick W Simpson was born in Stockport and the 1911 census shows him living at Wellington Rd, Stockport, not sure this tells us anymore. He married in 1926 in Levenshulme.

Interesting re the souvenirs and good that he kept them,

kind regards

 

Sheila

[TullochArd]

4 hours ago, sheilaelizabeth1951 said:

Thank you for this, it’s great to see a photograph of the time. Frederick W Simpson was born in Stockport and the 1911 census shows him living at Wellington Rd, Stockport, not sure this tells us anymore. He married in 1926 in Levenshulme.

We are in a fuzzy territory regarding local ASC detail but it tells us a tiny bit more.  Hulme Barracks, Levenshulme and Stockport are all about three miles apart which means he was likely serving in the ASC TF in Headquarters Company, or the Manchester Brigade Company ASC or the Lancashire Fusiliers Brigade Company ASC. It is most unlikely he was in the East Lancashire Brigade Company ASC based at Cloughfold, about 30 miles away.  

Also, as a TF soldier volunteering for overseas service, and being one of the first to deploy, there is plenty to research online regarding his general Terms and Conditions of Service. Under Army Order 3 of 1910, as a member of the TF who agreed to serve overseas in time of war he was also entitled to wear the Imperial Service Tablet but was probably in Egypt before he knew anything about that.  They didn't hang about after mobilisation.

His rapid deployment and activity as a Driver was likely similar to his comrades in the East Lancashire Brigade Company ASC.  It was reported that on their initial muster of August 1914 "There was a stirring scene at "Brynbella", the home of Captain H.M. Kenyon, when a general inspection took place of the local company of the Army Service Corps. The transport wagons made their way from the drill hall at Cloughfold and large crowds watched the procession. The fields around Brynbella, it was stated, soon resembled a small camp. A week or so later the company, about 80 strong, left the town." On their departure another article continued "..... there were more stirring scenes as the Rawtenstall Company of the 5th East Lancashire Territorial Arm Service Company (sic) left it's Cloughfold HQ. Large crowds waved flags and cheered as Captain Kenyon, of Brynbella, mounted his horse and led other horse officers, 14 wagons and a large detachment of men on foot through Rawtenstall and along Bury Road." In September 1914 they were in Egypt as part of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force.

I am "detached" from my notes at the moment but if I find anything more specific later on I'll get back to you. 

[TEW]

I see the 42nd East Lancs. division arrived in Marseilles from Egypt in March 1917. However, this did not include the ASC Coys. 447, 448, 449 & 450. These were left behind and were transferred to 53rd Division.

TNA have an odd diary reference for 447, 478, 479, 450 Companies A.S.C. which is France/Belgium from May 1918 and under 74th Yeomanry Division Train.

I've just downloaded it and TNA seem to have mis-described it, it is for 447, 448, 449 & 450 ASC not 478 & 479.

I've had a quick scan through and only spotted one entry for an Ordinary Rank - T4/244888 James McAneary previously T/642.

Come April 1919 the 74th Division Train is transferring many ordinary ranks to 287 Coy. ASC of 5th Army HT Reception Park.

The relevant 287 Coy. ASC diary includes a lot of Ordinary Rank details. Just spotted T4/245490 for March 1919.

Some pages only use Rank/Appointment & Surname. EG. Driver. It's not an easy read!

I've also seen T4/241403 Webster as a Driver with 1/1/East Lancs. Field Ambulance of 42nd Division in France June 1917.

TEW

[AndrewSid]

My great uncle was in the 42nd DIvision and I have  a copy of their divisional history.  His medal roll shows he was in the main  Division deployment from Southampton on the 10th of September alongside 15,500 Lancashire men.  There were three ASC companies deployed totalling 276 men and 16 officers. I think what’s of interest is the nature of their deployment. They were the first TF Division  deployed overseas and were mobilised at the outbreak of war, many  of them whilst they were away at their summer camps. Some men choose not to deploy but most did and many men applied to rejoin their old units in towns across east Lancashire.  Units were mobilised in what was in the main a wave of frenzied excitement.  There are many newspaper reports of crowds waving them off as they marched out of their barracks (think small TA building) located in the mill towns across east lancashire. Whilst most TF units nationwide were stood down on mobilisation for at least the time being, the 42nd  proudly deployed to what at the time was an unknown destination. 
 

Egypt garrison duty followed.  It was mostly dull with very little action.  Then Gallipoli from May 1915. 24 officers and 313 men of the Divisions ASC men deployed alongside almost all of the division including the 12 infantry battalions. The fighting was brutal and well documented with the majority of men becoming casualties. In essence, the original  division was no more. 

I will look through the book to see what the ASC element got up to upon return to Egypt but as stated, in the main, the remained in that theatre noting I believe quite a few went off to fight in Salonica. 

EDIT - as mentioned Div ASC stayed in Egypt when the Division went to France in March 1917. They joined the 53rd division and fought with them in the Gaza  campaign 

andy 

 

Edited 14 January , 2023 by AndrewSid

[sheilaelizabeth1951]

Thanks so much Andy that’s very helpful and interesting. You say there are many newspaper reports about the men going off to war, is it possible to see these anywhere?

 

I’m sure the details you gave about your uncle must be very similar to Frederick’s so it gives us a good insight as to what happened to him. Did your Great Uncle survive the war? My Great Uncle almost survived till the end of the war after being in since the start.

 

kind regards,

 

Sheila 

[AndrewSid]

Sheila, 

His medal card suggests that your relative survived the war? He was disembodied on 31.1.19.  Disembodied is a term for the discharge of a man who’s is, or signed up as a territorial force man. 

My great uncle did not survive noting he had a different journey to your relative in that he didn’t go to Gallipoli or arrive in that first draft. 
 

For newspaper articles I’d suggest British newspaper archives (BNA) noting this is subscription site and requires an element of practise to search properly.  You can often join for a trial period for free.  If we know his home town that would be most useful.  If that newspaper isn’t  digitised and on BNA then the local reference library should have hard copy or microfesh. 

If you consider each town had a TF unit then reporting of their departure is spread across the many respective local papers.  Prior to the war most local papers carried articles and weekly notes on parades, promotions etc which can also be a rich source for pre war men. 

have you looked through the ASC diaries for Gallipoli?
 

 

Edited 13 January , 2023 by AndrewSid

[TullochArd]

3 hours ago, sheilaelizabeth1951 said:

Thanks so much Andy that’s very helpful and interesting. You say there are many newspaper reports about the men going off to war, is it possible to see these anywhere?

Although you mention War Diaries Sheila the newspapers will give you the best chance of uncovering some personal detail.  War Diaries are also unlikely to cover the initial period and after that have a purely factual relevance which rarely extends to mentioning Other Ranks.  The named photo of the Cloughfold ASC Company and the description of the detail (and mood within the community) of their move to meet up with your relative's ASC Company are from local newspapers and I confidently predict there will similar in detail in Hulme/Stockport papers.  You might get lucky.  This was a novel event and well reported.

After his activation at Hulme Cavalry Barracks your relative and his ASC Company, and all the others in 42 Div were, by August 1914, in several temporary camps around Bolton at Turton, Edgworth, Doffcocker and Heaton where thousands of soldiers were now mustering under canvas. As a Driver he would have heard about, and no doubt been cautioned, on the first loss of life within the Division.  On the 27th August 1914 1109 Driver James Pover (19) of 6 Nuttall Street, Bolton and 1092 Gnr James Wood (16) of Derby Street, Bolton were both drowned in an accident whilst watering horses on the steep, sloping sides of Wayoh Reservoir, Bolton. Both are buried in Bolton (Heaton) Cemetery.  The hob-nail boots, stirrups and puttees as worn by your relative would have been a factor here.

The local reference library should have hard copy of local, extinct newspapers on microfiche.  Something like this site may also contain clues leading to hidden detail:

Stockport Archive Service | The National Archives

Edited 13 January , 2023 by TullochArd

[TEW]

I've been looking at a few diaries for 42nd Divisional Train and the four companies - 447, 448, 449 & 450.

 

Marseilles Commandant WO95/4038/2.

The 42nd Division moved from Egypt to Marseilles in March 1917. The commandant diary diary gives excellent details on the composition of the 42nd division on a ship by ship basis. A number (10) of ASC ordinary ranks accompanied the divisional train HQ to Marseilles. The diary also mentions ordinary ranks with Brigade HQ ASC which I presume is 125th, 126th  127th. So, a small number of 42nd Div. ASC ORs did move from Egypt to France in March 1917.

Looking at other divisions the divisional train diaries detail many postings and transfers virtually across the whole division EG. Artillery, Medical, Veterinary, DAC, Brigades Etc, Whether 42nd Div. left these ASC men behind in Egypt I can't say.

I'm not sure a man in one of the Div. train companies would necessarily stay with that company for the duration.

 

WO95/3151/5 is for 447, 448, 449 & 450 companies ASC which had been 42nd Div. then 53rd Div but by May 1918 were 74th Division who arrived in Marseilles in May 1918.

 

Marseilles Commandant WO95/4038/3.

This also gives good details on the arrival of 74th Division.

7/5/18. HT Caledonia arrived with 11 officers and 137 ORs of 447 Coy.
7/5/18. HT Caledonia arrived with 3 officers and 61 ORs of 449 Coy.
7/5/18. HT Indarra arrived with 4 officers and 61 ORs of 448 Coy.
7/5/18. HT Omrah arrived with 4 officers and 60 ORs of 448 Coy.

That makes 319 ORs arriving in France May 1918. Can't really say how many of those were originally 42nd division men or later reinforcements for 53rd Division.

TEW

[AndrewSid]

28 minutes ago, TEW said:

The 42nd Division moved from Egypt to Marseilles in March 1917. The commandant diary diary gives excellent details on the composition of the 42nd division on a ship by ship basis. A number (10) of ASC ordinary ranks accompanied the divisional train HQ to Marseilles. The diary also mentions ordinary ranks with Brigade HQ ASC which I presume is 125th, 126th  127th. So, a small number of 42nd Div. ASC ORs did move from Egypt to France in March 1917.

 

Thankyou. The reference to leaving the DIv ASC formations came from the Div history but it makes sense that a core of ASC men stayed with the Div in certain key positions and roles and travelled with them to France.  With our subject we can of course only place him on arrival in Egypt and from then his journey cannot be fully confirmed from what we have.  It would be great if we could confirm he deployed to Gallipoli or not.  Statistically he likely did but we cannot be sure .  As you say men moved around a fair bit in the  support arms.

[RussT]

That's useful information about the constituent ASC Companies of the 42nd Division - the numbered Companies matching the ones I posted above earlier in the thread.

I noticed Member @TullochArd  posted above a nice newspaper clip of ASC men in Egypt - but what confused me is that the clip mentions 428 Company ASC of the East Lancs Brigade. Can that number be correct? Anyone know?

Furthermore, does anyone know what the old TF forerunner East Lancs ASC names were before they were numerated (in Jan 1916 I think) to 447th, 448th, 449th and 450th ASC Companies? What I mean is, which Brigade ASC Company became which numbered ASC Company?

Russ

[sheilaelizabeth1951]

5 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

Sheila, 

His medal card suggests that your relative survived the war? He was disembodied on 31.1.19.  Disembodied is a term for the discharge of a man who’s is, or signed up as a territorial force man. 

My great uncle did not survive noting he had a different journey to your relative in that he didn’t go to Gallipoli or arrive in that first draft. 
 

For newspaper articles I’d suggest British newspaper archives (BNA) noting this is subscription site and requires an element of practise to search properly.  You can often join for a trial period for free.  If we know his home town that would be most useful.  If that newspaper isn’t  digitised and on BNA then the local reference library should have hard copy or microfesh. 

If you consider each town had a TF unit then reporting of their departure is spread across the many respective local papers.  Prior to the war most local papers carried articles and weekly notes on parades, promotions etc which can also be a rich source for pre war men. 

have you looked through the ASC diaries for Gallipoli?