t.ryan Posted 7 April Share Posted 7 April (edited) Yes, It would be rather rare to find a Pat. 1907 Winchester bayonet. Winchester did make 225.000 P13 bayonets and a hell of a lot of P13 Remington bayonets. It has been very wet here so I had time to do a bit of a search of 1907 bayonets sold so far this year on flea bay. I did not count a couple of roughies or bayonets without scabbards. At the moment $100.00 au is equal to $65.63 US. Some of the higher priced bayonets of some makes also may have had extra regimental stampings etc. Most have extra cost for postage also, $15 to $20. Wilkinson, 13 sold, lowest $243, highest $479 average $300 Sanderson, 11 sold, lowest $242, highest $505 average $339 EFD, 3 sold, $289, $365, $395 Remington, 2 sold, $260, $329 Chapman, 1 sold, $330 Mole, 1 sold, $305 JAC, 1 sold, $319 RFI, nil sold Vickers, nil sold Hookies, 3 sold, $998, $1275, $1925 Lithgow early, WW1 era, 7 sold, lowest $365 highest $489, average $439 and only 1 under $400. Lithgow later, WW2 era, 15 sold, lowest $285, highest $405, average $352. and only 1 under $300 I personally gained 4 on line in this time, between $275 and $299, nothing to special, that was price delivered. I have been doing a fair bit of travel and always on the lookout for these bayonets, but they are just not there to pick up, most dealers say they just cannot get onto them any more. So as you can see, there are not to many bargain 1907 bayonets to be had in this neck of the woods. Cheers, TR Edited 8 April by t.ryan Add extra info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 7 April Author Share Posted 7 April 17 hours ago, t.ryan said: Yes, It would be rather rare to find a Pat. 1907 Winchester bayonet. Winchester did make 100.000 P13 bayonets and a hell of a lot of P13 Remington bayonets. It has been very wet here so I had time to do a bit of a search of 1907 bayonets sold so far this year on flea bay. I did not count a couple of roughies or bayonets without scabbards. At the moment $100.00 au is equal to $65.63 US. Some of the higher priced bayonets of some makes also may have had extra regimental stampings etc. Most have extra cost for postage also, $15 to $20. Wilkinson, 13 sold, lowest $243, highest $479 average $300 Sanderson, 11 sold, lowest $242, highest $505 average $339 EFD, 3 sold, $289, $365, $395 Remington, 2 sold, $260, $329 Chapman, 1sold, $330 Mole, 1sold, $305 JAC, nil sold RFI, nil sold Vickers, nil sold Lithgow early, WW1 era, 7 sold, lowest $365 highest $489, average $439 and only 1 under $400. Lithgow later, WW2 era, 15 sold, lowest $285, highest $405, average $352. and only 1 under $300 I personally gained 4 on line in this time, between $275 and $299, nothing to special, that was price delivered. I have been doing a fair bit of travel and always on the lookout for these bayonets, but they are just not there to pick up, most dealers say they just cannot get onto them any more. So as you can see, there are not to many bargain 1907 bayonets to be had in this neck of the woods. Cheers, TR Thank you, very informative. Have also noticed a lot of Lithgow interwars show up, they are normally extremely rare but there is several online kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 8 April Share Posted 8 April I wish eBay UK still allowed the sale of bayonets. It used to be quite a good source. 🙁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 9 April Author Share Posted 9 April On 08/04/2024 at 15:57, peregrinvs said: I wish eBay UK still allowed the sale of bayonets. It used to be quite a good source. 🙁 It does not? I swear I’ve seen a couple kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peregrinvs Posted 10 April Share Posted 10 April On 09/04/2024 at 08:08, navydoc16 said: It does not? I swear I’ve seen a couple kind regards g People sneak them on sometimes, but if eBay UK notices they’ll take them down. How much of that is the increasingly Byzantine UK rules on selling / posting blades and how much is ‘we don’t allow the sale of weapons’ virtue signalling by eBay UK I don’t know. I had an illustration of this a few years ago when I tried to list a Sterling SMG magazine pouch. The software wouldn’t let me - apparently ‘SMG’ was considered an evil acronym as it ‘refers to an assault weapon’. 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 17 April Author Share Posted 17 April On 07/04/2024 at 15:56, t.ryan said: Yes, It would be rather rare to find a Pat. 1907 Winchester bayonet. Winchester did make 225.000 P13 bayonets and a hell of a lot of P13 Remington bayonets. It has been very wet here so I had time to do a bit of a search of 1907 bayonets sold so far this year on flea bay. I did not count a couple of roughies or bayonets without scabbards. At the moment $100.00 au is equal to $65.63 US. Some of the higher priced bayonets of some makes also may have had extra regimental stampings etc. Most have extra cost for postage also, $15 to $20. Wilkinson, 13 sold, lowest $243, highest $479 average $300 Sanderson, 11 sold, lowest $242, highest $505 average $339 EFD, 3 sold, $289, $365, $395 Remington, 2 sold, $260, $329 Chapman, 1 sold, $330 Mole, 1 sold, $305 JAC, 1 sold, $319 RFI, nil sold Vickers, nil sold Hookies, 3 sold, $998, $1275, $1925 Lithgow early, WW1 era, 7 sold, lowest $365 highest $489, average $439 and only 1 under $400. Lithgow later, WW2 era, 15 sold, lowest $285, highest $405, average $352. and only 1 under $300 I personally gained 4 on line in this time, between $275 and $299, nothing to special, that was price delivered. I have been doing a fair bit of travel and always on the lookout for these bayonets, but they are just not there to pick up, most dealers say they just cannot get onto them any more. So as you can see, there are not to many bargain 1907 bayonets to be had in this neck of the woods. Cheers, TR There has been a couple interesting things show up of late, the prices seem to be tumbling down on certain dealers and going through the roof on others. Appears to also be alot of folks still drawn into a good story rather than a decent example. Still trying my luck always at a good mid day ending auction. Kind regards, g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PA Chris Posted 17 April Share Posted 17 April Hello. 16 years ago, I was living in London and buying and selling bayonets and militaria at shows. A nice 1907 bayonet would cost from 60-80 pounds. I never really saw or bought Mole or RFI bayonets, and hookies were out of my price range. Fast forward 16 years and now Stateside, I pay about 100 to 300 bucks for a bayonet, but there are now RFIs, Moles, Remingtons and Chapmans much easier to find then I ever found them years ago. Prices have risen slightly, but more and the rarer makers have become available. HQB have seemed to be down in price nowadays. The only constant seems to be that there are still more Vickers around than everyone says there should be! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April 53 minutes ago, PA Chris said: The only constant seems to be that there are still more Vickers around than everyone says there should be! This is simply because Skennerton made a mistake when calculating the estimated numbers in his B&CB book. This is the one and only reference in print for Vickers supposed production numbers and it is wrong. You only have to read the relevant paragraph in his book to ascertain where the problem is. I believe he accidentally left out an entire 12 months of production. The back of the envelope maths calculations described in his book are simply wrong. Perhaps it is something that he can revisit in any forthcoming updates.? Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasemuseum Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April I have never done any research on bayonet production numbers - not my thing (WW1 radios a different matter). If you are convinced Ian has this wrong - get in touch with him now ! He has the initial draft finished of his revised book. He is still editing, making additions and adding bits and pieces. If you want to see something corrected before it goes to print act now. In a couple of months it will probably be too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April (edited) I agree, and Ian is very approachable and gets back to you in quick time. His new book will be printed at the end of the year when we loose him O/S which is a big shame for us locals. As for the 10,000 07 Vickers number and the amount seen, I compare it to the 10,000 numbered 1920 Contract Siamese 07 bayonets which is correct. I believe that they both show up in similar numbers, and am a bit surprised at how many smiling tigers we have now come across and recorded the numbers of out of that 10,000 bayonets. About 310 numbers recorded by JMB so far, mostly in the last few years. The cost of these smiling tiger bayonets has also got very expensive also. Cheers Edited 18 April by t.ryan Add extra info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April (edited) Right perhaps I will start a new thread and put the Vickers numbers up for discussion again. I did raise my doubts years ago on another long lost thread, where I illustrated in some detail where things went wrong. I will see if I can find that again, and recheck the maths, but from what I can remember it was a no-brainer. Cheers, SS PS. Okay I found the old thread ... Please be forewarned this is NOT for sensitive viewers.! Actually you might want to sit down with a strong drink in hand.! Ahh the good old days ... https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/185914-2-of-the-scarcer-1907-bayonets-by-vickers-and-mole/ Edited 19 April by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April Here is another link to an old thread on the Vickers P1907. Perhaps we can use it to further the discussion if anyone is feeling adventurous.? https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/296577-vickers-07/ Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April Vickers 1907 bayonet, numbers made. Ok, this is from page 192 of Ian Skennertons "British and Commonwealth Bayonets" for those that do not have access to it. From the numbers and years stated, it is very clear to see where things are a little confusing. It only took a few minutes to see that 5000 Patt. 07 Vickers bayonets had been delivered by 13th Oct. 1917 . So with that in mind it would only take several more weeks at 1240 a week (stated) to reach 10,000 bayonets which should be some time in November 1917. Then there is the rest of 1917, all 1918 and up to January 1919 when the last delivery was made. Question would be; how many 07 Vickers bayonets were made between say the end of Nov.1917 and January 1919 when the last ones were delivered, as it would not take long at 1240 a week to make another 10,000.!!!. I read the other link on the Vickers 07 bayonet, shame to see the Vickers part got side tracked along the way. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April Thanks for that summary Mr.Ryan, and for adding the relevant excerpt from the book so everyone can see the basis for the calculation ... I appreciate it. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April 22 hours ago, PA Chris said: Hello. 16 years ago, I was living in London and buying and selling bayonets and militaria at shows. A nice 1907 bayonet would cost from 60-80 pounds. I never really saw or bought Mole or RFI bayonets, and hookies were out of my price range. Fast forward 16 years and now Stateside, I pay about 100 to 300 bucks for a bayonet, but there are now RFIs, Moles, Remingtons and Chapmans much easier to find then I ever found them years ago. Prices have risen slightly, but more and the rarer makers have become available. HQB have seemed to be down in price nowadays. The only constant seems to be that there are still more Vickers around than everyone says there should be! Chris Chris, The current rate of exchange (today @ 5:30 pm) is 100 USD = 80 pounds sterling. So you are now paying the equivalent of 80 - 240 pounds sterling for what you spent 60-80 pounds in 2008. That is 30% more at low end and 3x the amount at the high end; how can you say that prices have risen slightly ? Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 18 April Author Share Posted 18 April 5 hours ago, t.ryan said: Vickers 1907 bayonet, numbers made. Ok, this is from page 192 of Ian Skennertons "British and Commonwealth Bayonets" for those that do not have access to it. From the numbers and years stated, it is very clear to see where things are a little confusing. It only took a few minutes to see that 5000 Patt. 07 Vickers bayonets had been delivered by 13th Oct. 1917 . So with that in mind it would only take several more weeks at 1240 a week (stated) to reach 10,000 bayonets which should be some time in November 1917. Then there is the rest of 1917, all 1918 and up to January 1919 when the last delivery was made. Question would be; how many 07 Vickers bayonets were made between say the end of Nov.1917 and January 1919 when the last ones were delivered, as it would not take long at 1240 a week to make another 10,000.!!!. I read the other link on the Vickers 07 bayonet, shame to see the Vickers part got side tracked along the way. Cheers. Yes I would like to see it followed through to a bit more conclusion, I was sad to read it go off topic as well, it would seem to reason they are quite off in total quantity and also the years produced- It is probably out of the scope of the book but vickers topped off a couple 1907s as well during the interwar period: kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 18 April Share Posted 18 April 22 hours ago, PA Chris said: Hello. The only constant seems to be that there are still more Vickers around than everyone says there should be! Chris Chris, This apparently comes from ShippingSteel, who believes that Skennerton's book (which estimates about 10,000 made) contains a gross error and that the true value is much greater than 10,000 ( possibly up to 89,000 if S>S numbers are fully extrapolated over the time period involved). It is possible that Skennerton made a mistake, but my problem is that I see no evidence for it. The evidence could be in either contract/delivery documents newly-found (none have ever been presented) or in relative numbers of Vickers bayonets observed; this latter seems to me to be the bone of contention between the Skennerton believers and the nay-sayers. I have probably the least amount of bayonet-collecting experience (about 10 yrs) of regular contributors to the GWF. However, I have been retired all of that time which has given me ample opportunity to regularly scan on-line sources of bayonets. I have been able to collaborate with Trajan (a long-time contributor to GWF) on two major Patt. 1907 projects, both of which involved deep-diving into Ebay and other auction sites on a daily basis. A current project is building a database of the so-called "Smiling Tiger" bayonets that were made by the BSA Co. Ltd in 1920 for Siam (their Type 62 bayonet) to accompany the contract for a KNOWN 10,000 rifles; again this requires that, along with collaborators on GWF, I keep up with bayonets for sale. As purely a spot-check, I ran a search this morning at 11:00 am for Vickers & Type 62 on the English-speaking Ebay sites, with the following results: Ebay USA Ebay Canada Ebay Australia Ebay New Zealand Vickers 1 0 0 Ebay NZ = Ebay USA Type 62 2 1 (from Oz) 2 Those numbers clearly do not represent the Vickers bayos floating around in huge numbers, but they are VERY consistent with my observations over the last 10 yrs that they are quite scarce. I make no pretense or claim that repeating the Ebay exercise every day for a year or 5 years or 10 years would produce the same result as above. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 19 April Share Posted 19 April (edited) Not much going on here either other than those 2 rather expensive smiling tigers JMB has mentioned; there have been a few recently sold tho, most now living on PhilB's cat farm. Can't say the same for Vickers, we do have a Vickers which is currently for sale but it has now been shortened and re stamped Mk11* in India, also stamped DP. There was one other sold in Qld a few months back. Cheers, TR Edited 19 April by t.ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 19 April Share Posted 19 April Vickers numbers, I emailed Ian Skennerton this morning with my thoughts and a few questions on the 10,000 Vickers 1907 bayonets, and he was quick to answer as usual. Thanks Ian. So this is it straight from the horses mouth for all to see. With his permission. It would be interesting to see the dates on those 07 Vickers out there 17s 18s 19s etc just to see how many later 18s & 19s dates do show up. Cheers, TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 19 April Author Share Posted 19 April (edited) 2 hours ago, t.ryan said: Vickers numbers, I emailed Ian Skennerton this morning with my thoughts and a few questions on the 10,000 Vickers 1907 bayonets, and he was quick to answer as usual. Thanks Ian. So this is it straight from the horses mouth for all to see. With his permission. It would be interesting to see the dates on those 07 Vickers out there 17s 18s 19s etc just to see how many later 18s & 19s dates do show up. Cheers, TR I’ll have to check my dates again, I believe I have 3, I believe all are later. but I would say it goes to stand of all my years of collecting I see maybe 3-4 a year. I’m not actively searching for them as I have had my fill and because of Skennertons research and the low count as being “the rarest” of all 1907s. I don’t seem to see them at any sort of reasonable price either kind regards g Edited 19 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 19 April Share Posted 19 April I do not expect to see any 1919 dated Vickers 07s; the last delivery was early January 1919 but you never know. Cheers, TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 19 April Author Share Posted 19 April I don’t see regularly 1919 dated anything except a Lithgow to be honest, only ever seen one British and it was a Sanderson and I bought it. Im still looking for any other 1919s but haven’t heard of much- I’m guessing a Vickers 1919 would be a very long shot to be honest. kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 19 April Author Share Posted 19 April This is all I could find, my vickers 18 and my 35- fairly sure I have a 17 around somewhere. kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 19 April Share Posted 19 April 36 minutes ago, navydoc16 said: This is all I could find, my vickers 18 and my 35- fairly sure I have a 17 around somewhere. I would suggest that your '35 is actually a "reissue" date, not a manufacture date at all. You can see it has overstamped the original date most likely an 18, and the appropriate Inspection marking is faintly seen stamped directly above it. I would guess it is a Crown/81/E just right of the Cypher. Another false alarm.! Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 19 April Author Share Posted 19 April (edited) yeah I think I pointed this one out in a previous effort, didn’t mean 35 in terms of manufacture- just in terms of I’d on another thread about Wilkinsons and the interwar stuff, I mentioned in the 20s and 30s it seems like they were specifically marking the re-issue dates over the original date marking, which is odd and it makes it difficult to date the actual item kind regards g Edited 19 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now