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Remembered Today:

Vickers '07'


sgt-maj
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The Vickers Pattern-1907 bayonet. The most sought after British Great War bayonet... after the '07' Hooked Quillon. Approx 10,000 total production between mid 1917 to December 1918.

How many would one surmise have survived? I have seven in my WW1 bayonet collection... '5' shown.

 

Vickers.JPG.b16b33120e59b44f138f83dc7bfbcba3.JPG

Edited by sgt-maj
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Sgt-Maj,

Very nice examples, and you must have been collecting for quite a long while to have picked up seven.

Based on my recording of the serials of Siamese Patt. 07 Bayonets (contract of 10,000 rifles / Bayonets in 1920), I would guesstimate that maybe 150-250 each of the Vickers and Siamese still exist.

Regards,

JMB

Edited by JMB1943
typo
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I truly feel it must be more than a few hundred Vickers.  They turn up regularly on ebay.

Mine was Turked and shortened, the only Vickers I have seen treated like that.  Also picked it up for next to nothing.

 

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1 minute ago, N White said:

I truly feel it must be more than a few hundred Vickers.  They turn up regularly on ebay.

Mine was Turked and shortened, the only Vickers I have seen treated like that.  Also picked it up for next to nothing.

 

Have to say I would agree with this - but given the way the prices have jumped recently I wonder if some of them aren't the same ones doing the rounds.

I only have 1 Vickers I think, but I don't have a Mole yet so that is on my list to complete the set!

Chris

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Yeah I think I have seen one? MOLE for sale...ever?

I have not been really searching but they are far harder to find for sure.

Found the Vickers pics.

20210505_173414.jpg

20210505_173426.jpg

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I also believe that the supposed 10,000 total production of the Vickers P1907 bayonet was a flawed calculation. There never was any "contract documents" sighted and Skennerton came up with the number from documents that reported weekly deliveries. When the book states that Vickers were actually delivering up to 1,240 per week and with production running over an 18 month period, it is extremely hard to believe that someone didn't muck up their sums.!

Cheers, SS

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6 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

I also believe that the supposed 10,000 total production of the Vickers P1907 bayonet was a flawed calculation. There never was any "contract documents" sighted and Skennerton came up with the number from documents that reported weekly deliveries. When the book states that Vickers were actually delivering up to 1,240 per week and with production running over an 18 month period, it is extremely hard to believe that someone didn't muck up their sums.!

Cheers, SS

Skennerton's book ALSO mentions the extreme difficulty that Vickers had with a contract for the P. '14 rifle /P. '13 bayonet; so bad was it, that the contract was switched to the U.S.

I would not care to extrapolate 1240 per week to an implied "much greater than 10,000 up to 89,000" total production.

Regards,

JMB

 

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13 hours ago, N White said:

I truly feel it must be more than a few hundred Vickers.  They turn up regularly on ebay.

How regularly, would you say??

Not that regularly, by my observation; I would say only 10-12 per year.

Regards,

JMB

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"Vickers bayonet" searched today brought up seven.  A few I have seen before today, but most are new.

For an apples and oranges comparison, there were 20k green handled M16 bayonets made in 1961.  (An easily discernable known production bayonet variant, like the Vickers).  I have once seen 2 available on ebay at once, and none for years.  Those I would believe under 100 remain- and they usually sell for $1000+ and quickly

The fact that Vickers bayonets languish at $350 just does not suggest the same rarity to me.

 

 

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1 hour ago, N White said:

"Vickers bayonet" searched today brought up seven.  A few I have seen before today, but most are new.

Certainly there are 7 currently listed on Ebay,  BUT they did not all appear this week, or even this month.

Assuming a 7-day listing period, then three were listed in March (1 @ the 4th; 2 @ the 6th).

One was posted prior to Feb. 18th

One was posted prior to Jan. 16th.

Posting date for two could not be ascertained.

If 3-5 Vickers turned up every month I would certainly increase my estimate, but at present I still believe that it is about 10-12 per year.

We should revisit, perhaps this time next year, the issue of how often the Vickers bayonets do actually turn up.

I would like to know that there are actually far more than my low estimate.

Regards,

JMB

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No eBay bayonets here in the u.k., and haven’t seen one for sale in a while online.

I have only one, but if I search WD Militaria, (who doesn’t remove any listings and has over 1700 pages) using the search word vickers it brings up only two P1907 examples, using the search word Mole it brings up no P1907 but one P1888…..using Sanderson pulls up 14, and Wilkinson 31.

Not exactly scientific I know, but gives us a rough idea.

Still looking for that Mole.

https://www.wdmilitaria.co.uk/shop.php?ps=1

Dave.

Edited by Dave66
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When Skennerton states a document dated October 1917 reports 5,000 had been actually delivered, and production continued on till after the end of the war (at least another 12 months) with weekly deliveries in excess of 1,000 during that period, his basis for calculation was seriously flawed. (See B&CB p.192)

I looked at this a while back and started collecting dates of production from known examples to check if any dates where missing. They were easy to find and ran past wars end if I remember correctly, will have to find them off an old computer.

Anyway Skennerton says it is easy to see why Vickers bayonets are relatively scarce, well in my experience they are not scarce at all, and to the point that I don't even buy them especially, as their is no real premium. Collectors will tell you they are common, in large lots of unsorted bayonets they appear regularly. Another reason that you might not see them circulating now days is that everyone is holding some thinking they are scarce.!

Cheers, SS

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Posted (edited)

Some interesting theories mentioned here about the actual Vickers production -v- documented production. The accepted amount of total production - 10,000... has always to me been a 50/50 issue. As has been mentioned, Skennertons calculation does seem to be a tad flawed. Personally, I've always thought the total production amount to be in the region of 20,000. I've been collecting Vickers '07's now for about 20yrs, coming across possibly '3' to '5' per year for sale. My standing collection is '7'... consisting of the following manufacture dates : 8-17, 12-17, 2-18, 4-18, 7-18, 8-18, 11-18. I also have four examples ready to offer for sale = 1x 4-18 & 3x 8-18.

I'm not certain if, during production of the '07', if Vickers had a boost in effort. The reason I say that, is due to there being two production months, which, from my own experience, seem to be more prolific... being encountered more frequently. Those two months are : April 1918 & August 1918. 

A specific issue I have noted with the 'Date of manufacture' stampings, is the month is generally stamping poorly.... being either extremely faint or, more often than not - partial. The three 8-18 examples I will be offering for sale, all have a partially stamped month = '8'.

Cost, There was a time when when a Vickers '07' could be purchased for around a similar price as say - Sanderson, Chapman, or Wilkinson.  Sadly, those days are now long gone. Since the passing of the Centenary, prices have started to shoot through the roof, with a Vickers example fetching twice, and in some cases, three times that of Mole. This year alone, I have noted Vickers '07's fetching between £200 & £450... obviously linked to the examples condition, and whom the seller was.

On the issue of 'Rarety'.... I find that 'Mole' examples are more elusive. I do have one example in my collection, and have knowledge of a further two for sale Dave66, N White, 4th Gordons ( neither seller being linked to me in any way! ).

I'll be posting detailed photo's here soon. In the meantime, here are three examples of the partial month stamping... both being '8'.

 

A.JPG

B.JPG

C.jpg

Edited by sgt-maj
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SS,

Well, the issue is not really how many were produced and did Skennerton mis-calculate.

We KNOW that only 10,000 Siamese P. 07’s were made, and my observation is that they and the Vickers appear with about the same frequency. 

Skennerton gives Mole production at 60,000, but these are apparently more scarce than either the Siamese (10 K) or the Vickers (10 K per B&CB or upto 89 K per your proposed calcn).

The OP requested thoughts on how many still exist, so what is your best guess?

Regards,

JMB

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On my side of the world (NZ) Vickers & Mole 07s appear with similar regularity, the Siamese  07s are a little bit more common but in saying that all seem to come up in batches, the real rarity appears to be the Remington 07s 

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As per the N White example, it is surprising how many Vickers P1907 you find amongst the Turked examples. Years ago when I was collecting data on the Ottoman bayonet makers I would trawl through all the Turked cutdowns looking for the makers and dates of the M1890 and M1903 bayonets. A by-product of that study was the large number of P1907 cutdowns that were encountered. If you want to search for certain bayonets you sometimes need to broaden your "parameters".

Cheers, SS

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Here are a couple of the pics of the date ranges, some of the earliest to the latest, June 1917 and up to November 1918. These were already posted on the forum.

post-52604-0-61678100-1350867714_thumb.jpg.dae80ecf4b5ea5382ad58e5946eac598.jpgpost-52604-0-44044000-1350867458_thumb.jpg.de3c7a67b54cb1b6a04ed6f74add8e3c.jpg

Another area in which Vickers are well over-represented is in Canadian issued P1907's ... the C^ mark and Vickers maker stamp are often found together.

IMG_20220309_221930.jpg.ec3312e230ef8fe69e98d1cdabfc4ea8.jpg

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On 09/03/2022 at 12:32, shippingsteel said:

Here are a couple of the pics of the date ranges, some of the earliest to the latest, June 1917 and up to November 1918. These were already posted on the forum.

post-52604-0-61678100-1350867714_thumb.jpg.dae80ecf4b5ea5382ad58e5946eac598.jpgpost-52604-0-44044000-1350867458_thumb.jpg.de3c7a67b54cb1b6a04ed6f74add8e3c.jpg

Another area in which Vickers are well over-represented is in Canadian issued P1907's ... the C^ mark and Vickers maker stamp are often found together.

IMG_20220309_221930.jpg.ec3312e230ef8fe69e98d1cdabfc4ea8.jpg

Canadian issue '07's as a whole, are quite infrequent here in the UK.

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Here is another one of mine in very original condition. Old photo taken 'as found' whilst still a little rough, cleaned up nicely. You can just make out the C^ above the clearance hole. I always like to see the crisp inspection marks on the timber grips which show they are the original and not replaced. In my experience the 9C/E inspection mark is unique to the Vickers bayonets.

Cheers, SS

post-52604-0-26387700-1350862578_thumb.jpg.e2a480deaffd422e58f0ccc486f6003c.jpg

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My Vickers P1907 bayonet. Has anyone got an information on the stamps on the scabbard tin ware?

Mickster

Vickers 1907 --01.JPG

Vickers 1907 --02.JPG

Victers 1907-- 03.JPG

Vickers 1907 --04.JPG

Vickers 1907 --05.JPG

Vickers 1907 --06.JPG

Vickers 1907 --07.JPG

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53 minutes ago, Mickster said:

My Vickers P1907 bayonet. Has anyone got an information on the stamps on the scabbard tin ware?

Vickers 1907 --04.JPG

RE in a circle is the makers mark for Remington in the USA.

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14 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

RE in a circle is the makers mark for Remington in the USA.

I suspected as much Andrew. Im now wondering if I got scabbards mixed up or if I obtained the bayonet with the Remington scabbard. I will have a look at my Pattern 14 rifle bayos tomorrow.

Mickster

 

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11 hours ago, Mickster said:

I suspected as much Andrew. Im now wondering if I got scabbards mixed up or if I obtained the bayonet with the Remington scabbard. I will have a look at my Pattern 14 rifle bayos tomorrow.

I believe that like most major suppliers Remington supplied not only bayonets with scabbards but also completed spare scabbards plus spares in general, which would just be used as required without thought of matching makers etc. As your scabbard leather is in the post-war black finish and the bayonet has refurbish marks from 1924 it's possible the two have been together for best part of a century. Is the scabbard date still visible on the reverse?

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9 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

I believe that like most major suppliers Remington supplied not only bayonets with scabbards but also completed spare scabbards plus spares in general, which would just be used as required without thought of matching makers etc. As your scabbard leather is in the post-war black finish and the bayonet has refurbish marks from 1924 it's possible the two have been together for best part of a century. Is the scabbard date still visible on the reverse?

No Andrew. No marks or dates on the other side. No stamps on the leather either.

Mickster

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