Remington 1907 Bayonet

[DisasterDog]

13 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

The Number attached to this Indian inspection marking is an individual Inspector's number and not in any way related to a date.

I agree with this assessment given we’ve seen a similar trend with ink stamps.

[MrEd]

21 hours ago, DisasterDog said:

I agree with this assessment given we’ve seen a similar trend with ink stamps.

Yea I agree too and the final hypotheses of my bag is that it is either

- British made GS pattern OS haversack and refurbed with Indian made brass flap securing buckles

- British made GS pattern OS haversack and used Indian made brass from the beginning 

- Indian made entirely (although weave/material etc of the bag doesn’t fit with Indian made?)

probably inter-war or ww2, I don’t think it’s Great War (May be wrong though)

 

so on the lookout for a pucka ww1 dated OS haversack!

[MrEd]

Edit: forgot to add this photo of a pattern 37 small pack stamp - deffo Indian made and has the same stamp, confirms it’s an Indian (or British in india) inspectors stamp

[shippingsteel]

Here is another interesting thread on Indian equipment that has a myriad of examples of this type of Inspection marking. Lots of good information actually ...

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/equipment-field-gear/indian-made-pattern-1937-webbing-set-overview-407267/

Cheers,  SS 

 

[navydoc16]

16 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Here is another interesting thread on Indian equipment that has a myriad of examples of this type of Inspection marking. Lots of good information actually ...

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/equipment-field-gear/indian-made-pattern-1937-webbing-set-overview-407267/

Cheers,  SS 

 

Now that is fascinating, I’ve not seen anything quite as detailed. 
 

cheers for the link 

[DisasterDog]

16 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Here is another interesting thread on Indian equipment that has a myriad of examples of this type of Inspection marking. Lots of good information actually ...

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/equipment-field-gear/indian-made-pattern-1937-webbing-set-overview-407267/

Cheers,  SS 

 

That thread is a perennial favorite of mine.  Unfortunately I was late to the collecting game & missed out when this Indian webbing came in, so now it’s just piecing kit together.

[navydoc16]

One more comment, it appears to be a refurb or reassembly mark? 

[t.ryan]

Yes, that was the thoughts from Ian Skennerton when I sent the original photo's to him.

It is fairly clear that the work was done in India but it would be nice to know when the refurbishments were actually done period wise, also the same for the IG over 21 on the Remington bayonet that goes with this scabbard.

I came across another similar but rivets showing scabbard with a double marked locket, 2 & C^15 on one side and unusual crown inspection mark on other; and C^14? marked cape, this one on a 1917 Wilkinson bayonet which was not IG marked.

Cheers,

TR 

 

Edited 8 April by t.ryan

[AndyBsk]

Web frog is marked with well known czechoslovak maker Baťa  which had filials around the world.

 

[MrEd]

15 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

Web frog is marked with well known czechoslovak maker Baťa  which had filials around the world.

 

I thought it was Bata shoe company in Calcutta?

[navydoc16]

1 hour ago, MrEd said:

I thought it was Bata shoe company in Calcutta?

Yep it was originally Czech and a company was opened in India, as well as a lot of other factories 

 

kind regards,

g

[MrEd]

26 minutes ago, navydoc16 said:

Yep it was originally Czech and a company was opened in India, as well as a lot of other factories 

 

kind regards,

g

That’s great, thanks I didn’t realise that 

[navydoc16]

5 hours ago, t.ryan said:

Yes, that was the thoughts from Ian Skennerton when I sent the original photo's to him.

It is fairly clear that the work was done in India but it would be nice to know when the refurbishments were actually done period wise, also the same for the IG over 21 on the Remington bayonet that goes with this scabbard.

I came across another similar but rivets showing scabbard with a double marked locket, 2 & C^15 on one side and unusual crown inspection mark on other; and C^14? marked cape, this one on a 1917 Wilkinson bayonet which was not IG marked.

Cheers,

TR 

 

Obviously things can be swapped around as im sure you know, but what I have been noticing is that some of the scabbards appear to have much finer and "earlier" looking "C^" stamps, and others have the appearance of much older, blockier stamps seen of the Indian refurbs of the 1950. Certainly I will need to look though my shortened bayonets for the markings now. I feel the leather works appears to be a long time military contract and likely refurbished bayonets over a very long time period 

 

kind regards,

g

[navydoc16]

The plot thickens, they also made scabbard throats by hand from the looks of it. Scabbard dated 1944- so maybe the C^ marking pre dates this 

kind regards

g

[DisasterDog]

4 hours ago, navydoc16 said:

The plot thickens, they also made scabbard throats by hand from the looks of it. Scabbard dated 1944- so maybe the C^ marking pre dates this

I was under the impression these style of fittings were much later, yours clearly shows the Cawnpore “ca” marking.  Here was a previous example of mine with the same style locket, “ca1966” scabbard, and cut-down OA bayonet (‘43 or ‘45, you decide):

 

[DisasterDog]

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/lithapore-bayonet.1079217/#post-9620385

[navydoc16]

Yeah that is the curious thing, this is attached to a matching non DP non refurb RFI. Im just wondering if they began to run out of throat stores and began production. Certainly after the war in the 50s and 60s they had lots of new Remington and later Orange Arsenal components- however by this stage, the USA, UK and Australia would have been willing to offload huge quantities of older equipment to a Commonwealth country- this around the time New Zealand and the UK flogged off all their P14s 

 

kind regards

g

[t.ryan]

A bit more to the puzzle, found these scabbard markings on a P13 bayonet recently sold, original RE on cape and locket,  C^13? locket and CC 1929 leather stamping near seam.

Also found several other interesting markings on scabbards of bayonets sold by the same local bayonet dealer. There are several RFI 1944 near mint short  bayonets included all with nice scabbards. The locket and cape do not appear to have any markings on these but the leather is stamped.

His 1907, 1913 and RFI items are well worth a look at for the mix of Indian marked scabbards.

There is also a nicely marked 1903 bayonet taken in Afghanistan in 2006 by US soldier.

Cheers,

TR

 

 

 

[DisasterDog]

16 hours ago, t.ryan said:

CC 1929 leather stamping near seam.

Cawnpore “ca” marking.

[DisasterDog]

On 08/04/2024 at 15:07, navydoc16 said:

Yeah that is the curious thing, this is attached to a matching non DP non refurb RFI. Im just wondering if they began to run out of throat stores and began production. Certainly after the war in the 50s and 60s they had lots of new Remington and later Orange Arsenal components- however by this stage, the USA, UK and Australia would have been willing to offload huge quantities of older equipment to a Commonwealth country- this around the time New Zealand and the UK flogged off all their P14s 

 

kind regards

g

I think these are late production lockets, at least based off of discussion with other collectors who were in the game when these became available.  I think your example was fitted to the scabbard well past independence & that your “ca” marking indicates refurbishment of the scabbard rather than its production.  I think these date from a time when the 2A series came into production, as the rifle itself was a stopgap measure.  They are certainly uncommon and one would think they would be encountered much more frequently were they even WW2 production.  

[navydoc16]

1 hour ago, DisasterDog said:

I think these are late production lockets, at least based off of discussion with other collectors who were in the game when these became available.  I think your example was fitted to the scabbard well past independence & that your “ca” marking indicates refurbishment of the scabbard rather than its production.  I think these date from a time when the 2A series came into production, as the rifle itself was a stopgap measure.  They are certainly uncommon and one would think they would be encountered much more frequently were they even WW2 production.  

Very possibly, but there is a matching refurb mark on the front, I will have another look at the front and take some pics. I would be interested to see the Co mark on some WW1 dated RFI as well 

im not aware of the bayonets being used as “stop gaps” as India reverted from the MkIII to the MkII indicating they were happy to do more steps in production post war. I would make the educated guess they were definitely made at a time of hand made production when they were running out of throats and had a desperation to make them as crude as they did- just when that time period is, is the real question.

They had very good manufacturing capacity and if the throats needed to be made during peace time around the 2A I believe they would have just been made the standard way. Certainly all the FR refurbished gear I have seen from the 50s and 60s include slot of brand new RE or OA fittings. 

These handmade throats have always been accepted over here amongst the Indian collectors as “wartime economy” models, and I have always believed they were so rarely seen as they were replaced and removed during later refurbishments to the standard type.

They may have just been produced over a very short period of time when they got desperately low on throats or preempting them running out and needed to supplement ect. Perhaps we will never know.

I really only collect non DP Indian gear and have a now “complete” set running from WW1 through to the end of 1907 production and refurb including several examples still in grease. I really only try to buy stuff that is all as-issued.

^all theoretical, but did you have any further details? I am away from my desk at the moment and don’t have access to Roses book but it may be in there. 

kind regards

g

Edited 10 April by navydoc16

[DisasterDog]

3 minutes ago, navydoc16 said:

im not aware of the bayonets being used as “stop gaps” as India reverted from the MkIII to the MkII indicating they were happy to do more steps.

The 2A is a rifle, manufactured as a stopgap, not a bayonet.  
 

Don’t get me wrong here, but would not a 1966 dated scabbard with an “economy” locket negate the argument for it being “WW2 economy measure that were replaced at later refurbishments”?  

20 minutes ago, navydoc16 said:

They had very good manufacturing capacity and if the throats needed to be made during peace time around the 2A  they would have just been made the standard way.

6 minutes ago, navydoc16 said:

Based on the apparent deterioration in quality on the latest observed 1988 Ishapore No.1 MkIII*s, I personally would hazard a guess that “good enough” was deemed sufficient, and would feel comfortable attributing these lockets to some cottage industry late enough that shortages wouldn’t have demanded restarting full-on production.  
 

Maintaining the scabbards for P1907s and derivatives still in use in India certainly wouldn’t demand full scale locket production per British specification when such simple fabrication is available.

 

IMO it’s an economy measure not because of a wartime inability to meet production, but a very late economy measure to meet production when there is very little demand.

[navydoc16]

Sorry should have been clearer, I wasn’t referring to the bayonets as stop gaps. The 2A rifle obviously had a lot of design and manufacturing steps- it is a stop gap in the sense of the word but not really in terms of actual production. You meant that the bayonets were refurbished with hand made scabbards as a “stop gap” to meet 2A production? 
 

My scabbard is dated 1944 and maintains the hand made throat, it is matched by painted number to a bayonet that has never been refurbished- or at least a false edge added. Was there 1966 scabbard with a hand made throat you had a photo of? As that would certainly disprove my idea 
 

Yes indeed very much so, but that late I would have through DP being all the last remaining bayonets, there would have been many throats and condemned blades choose from. 
 

just a thought, nothing pointed in there apart from the bayonets haha 

 

certainly you’re theory makes sense too, I only have the 30 or so to look through in my own collection and only one hand made throat, I will need to look for more, examples- but as you said the hand made throats are hard to find unfortunately 

Edited 10 April by navydoc16

[DisasterDog]

8 minutes ago, navydoc16 said:

Was there 1966 scabbard with a hand made throat you had a photo of? As that would certainly disprove my idea 

Yes, in the Gunboards link I posted above.  Below:
 

On 08/04/2024 at 09:49, DisasterDog said:

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/lithapore-bayonet.1079217/#post-9620385

 

[DisasterDog]

24 minutes ago, navydoc16 said:

I only have the 30 or so to look through in my own collection

Funny you mention that, I looked through all of my Indian bayonets & couldn’t find any Indian inspection markings on any of the scabbard metal.  No “C^number”, no “ca”, go figure.  It’s only more questions than answers.  The unfortunate part about it is the number of people who possess examples versus the number who share & participate.  The puzzle awaits more pieces…..