t.ryan Posted 24 March Share Posted 24 March I recently picked up this 4/15 Remington 1907 Bayonet and Scabbard which is a little different in the markings to those that usually show up. Bayonet first, the Remington marked side of the ricasso looks correct, 1907 over 4 15 over Remington roundel. The other side has the broad arrow, the bend test X and 17, (1917 re inspection stamp), and remains of a couple of inspectors marks. It also has IG over 2 or 21 and as far as I can see, this is an Indian Government mark. The teardrop stud scabbard is the earlier one with blind rivets. On one side of the locket is RE (Remington). On the other side of the locket is C^15 and on the cape is the same C^15. I cannot see any markings in the leather. On the mouth of scabbard is # 224 which looks to have been crossed out. Wondering why this bayonet would have Indian Government stampings if this is the case and especially if done in 1917. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 March Share Posted 24 March Some interesting markings to be found on that set for sure. Firstly the bayonet looks to be a stock standard Remington P1907, but one that has found it's way into Indian service, with the IG mark. It also appears to have picked up an extra Inspection ('17) from it's time in British service. You can just see the remnant of that Inspection marking top left of the ricasso. See the photo below of normal Remington ricasso with just the 2 stamps. Regarding the scabbard it is interesting for the C ^ 15 marks, which I haven't seen before. Strange they are on an RE stamped locket as well. Possibly an American sub-contractor supplying scabbard fittings to the Remington contract.? Those "type" of markings are also seen on some Indian made scabbards so I am not sure what to make of it to be honest. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 24 March Share Posted 24 March TR, That is a very nice pair to add to the collection, especially with the unusual markings on locket & chape. I don’t know whether to read as C “A with a tail” 15 or C “broad arrow”15, but the chunky/ blocky style is reminiscent of Indian markings. Didn’t British inspectors sent to the US have stamps of the Crown / A / Number format? So not quite a match. Cawnpore Arsenal—-does that ring a bell for anyone? Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 24 March Share Posted 24 March See Post #7 by @MrEd in this thread for similar examples of the “C^number”: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 March Share Posted 24 March (edited) Good spot by DisasterDog they are the exact same inspection markings found on the Haversack brass ... the plot thickens ( as is usually the case.!) Under magnification I could see it was the C ^ 15 with a Broad Arrow hence my confusion. Normally that style of marking is Indian and something that eminated from the Cawnpore Harness & Saddlery Factory, but they seemed to use the Ca.17 or the likes. Cawnpore was THE Indian centre for the manufacture of equipment for the military. I did see this style again recently on a brass fitted scabbard made out of Cawnpore, I will try to locate the photo again to illustrate. PS. Photo now added Cheers, SS Edited 24 March by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 24 March Share Posted 24 March (edited) As shown in the other thread, a similar ink-stamped example from my 1941-dated KEF respirator bag, plus I found a pic of a similar (but D instead of C) marking from my Indian dummy “training rifle”: Edited 24 March by DisasterDog Grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 24 March Share Posted 24 March I have 20+ Indian SMLEs and a similar number of bayonets (and some Indian 08 and 37 web) but I am away from it all currently - I don't recall the marking, but I will check and report back when I can. I did a quick check in India's Enfield (Edwards) and see no reference to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisasterDog Posted 24 March Share Posted 24 March Because I don’t have my example handy, here is a screenshot from the IMA website of a No.4 bayonet frog showing both the Cawnpore “Ca” and another “C^number” ink stamp: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 March Share Posted 25 March Right so this would suggest that the Carrow15 and other numbers in that format are Indian inspection markings. And most probably from a later period, given the above photo and association with a WW2 date stamp. The fact it was found on a Remington stamped locket just another "red herring" and probably more to do with a later refurbishment of the scabbard. The confusion over whether the number attached is a year date or an Inspector number is real though.! Obviously the larger numbers rule out any dates in those particular cases. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 25 March Share Posted 25 March 13 minutes ago, shippingsteel said: Right so this would suggest that the Carrow15 and other numbers in that format are Indian inspection markings. And most probably from a later period, given the above photo and association with a WW2 date stamp. The fact it was found on a Remington stamped locket just another "red herring" and probably more to do with a later refurbishment of the scabbard. The confusion over whether the number attached is a year date or an Inspector number is real though.! Obviously the larger numbers rule out any dates in those particular cases. Cheers, SS I agree with this but will still have a look at my stuff to see if I can find any similar markings - it will take a minute though Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 25 March Share Posted 25 March I seem to remember seeing 3 digit Indian inspection markings on latter period bayonets as well. No doubt a trawl through online photos will bring something up. Chris you may well find some on yours. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 26 March Author Share Posted 26 March (edited) Thanks to all for the thoughts and input on the Rem. bayonet and scabbard so far. I am sure that we will learn a little more about the unknown marks before to long. I have already spent some time searching through old photo's and the like looking for the C^15 marking on locket and cape but so far nothing has shown up. I did come across a couple of early 1907 RFI bayonets with RE marked blind rivet scabbards which look very similar to the one above, but there were no photo's of cape or the other side of locket to see what markings were on them. No way of knowing how long bayonet and scabbard were paired tho. I see on another forum that there must have been a lot of RE marked scabbards made, as there seems to be a hell of a lot of them out there. Cheers. Edited 26 March by t.ryan Photo problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattr82 Posted 26 March Share Posted 26 March A little late to this thread but I myself have seen the C ^ 15 stamp before on a forum online. I'll have a look tomorrow. I'd be going with Cawnpore Arsenal as India, (like other nations) tended to have the letters of the respective establishment/factory/arsenal etc in the stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 26 March Share Posted 26 March (edited) Remington did make a lot of scabbards, not only for the P1907's they produced but also for the million or so P1913 bayonets they made. And all these extra P1913 scabbards were identical and importantly declared "interchangeable" on the P1907 bayonet. Also I believe that Remington produced the scabbard components under contract as well, so these were used in any repairs and refurbishments of existing scabbards, so yes the RE stamp in its various formats is indeed quite commonly seen. And lastly, heaven forbid that I should put on the pedants hat, but I feel it should be stated that there was NEVER a Cawnpore Arsenal.! It has been mentioned twice now in this thread, so for those who like to use the right terminology there was a Cawnpore Harness and Saddlery Factory but never an Arsenal. "Established in the year 1859 as Government Harness & Saddlery Factory for repair and fabrication of Harness and Saddlery items." Cheers, SS Edited 26 March by shippingsteel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattr82 Posted 26 March Share Posted 26 March (edited) Roger that SS. So no Cawnpore for bayonet parts or refurb? Cheers. My knowledge if Indian production is very limited but always good to hear of other information. Edited 26 March by Mattr82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 26 March Share Posted 26 March On 25/03/2024 at 01:59, JMB1943 said: TR, That is a very nice pair to add to the collection, especially with the unusual markings on locket & chape. I don’t know whether to read as C “A with a tail” 15 or C “broad arrow”15, but the chunky/ blocky style is reminiscent of Indian markings. Didn’t British inspectors sent to the US have stamps of the Crown / A / Number format? So not quite a match. Cawnpore Arsenal—-does that ring a bell for anyone? Regards, JMB I have an example in my collection, I believe it is a mk3 star. Same markings- certainly Indian kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 26 March Share Posted 26 March 1 hour ago, shippingsteel said: Remington did make a lot of scabbards, not only for the P1907's they produced but also for the million or so P1913 bayonets they made. And all these extra P1913 scabbards were identical and importantly declared "interchangeable" on the P1907 bayonet. Also I believe that Remington produced the scabbard components under contract as well, so these were used in any repairs and refurbishments of existing scabbards, so yes the RE stamp in its various formats is indeed quite commonly seen. And lastly, heaven forbid that I should put on the pedants hat, but I feel it should be stated that there was NEVER a Cawnpore Arsenal.! It has been mentioned twice now in this thread, so for those who like to use the right terminology there was a Cawnpore Harness and Saddlery Factory but never an Arsenal. "Established in the year 1859 as Government Harness & Saddlery Factory for repair and fabrication of Harness and Saddlery items." Cheers, SS Correct, Remington made huge amounts of not only scabbards, but scabbard spares. A lot were transferred to India and Australia in the interwar period. They are extremely common- more so than the bayonets. that bayonet is a bit of a red-herring in itself as it is a 1920s refurb- they were light in the polishing and it exited Indian hands early in WW2 and never returned. Hence it was never converted. they are quite rare in their own right I have been searching for a full length British/American/Lithgow marked Indian refurb for a while kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 3 April Author Share Posted 3 April I have done a hell of a lot of photo searching on the lookout for the C^15 stamping on the above scabbard locket and cape, but as yet have found nothing similar. I did send the photo's to Ian Skennerton for his thoughts and he was of similar opinion to what has already been stated above. That being; C^15 stamp is adjacent to both replaced wire laces so it is reference to them. C most probably Cawnpore (factory, harness & saddlery depot) and 15 an inspectors number. He also mentioned that 100,000 Remington Pattern 1914 Rifles and P'13 bayonets were sent from the Remington factory to India in 1916. This will be shown in his soon to be published new book, page 377. I suppose this scabbard may have started out as one of those 100.000 and is now a good paring for the IG stamped Remington 1907 bayonet. In the mean time I will keep searching for more information as there must be more than one still standing. Cheers, TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April Let me check this evening, as I am sure I have a good example c^15 or something similar in my collection of the marking kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April (edited) 7 hours ago, t.ryan said: I have done a hell of a lot of photo searching on the lookout for the C^15 stamping on the above scabbard locket and cape, but as yet have found nothing similar. I did send the photo's to Ian Skennerton for his thoughts and he was of similar opinion to what has already been stated above. That being; C^15 stamp is adjacent to both replaced wire laces so it is reference to them. C most probably Cawnpore (factory, harness & saddlery depot) and 15 an inspectors number. He also mentioned that 100,000 Remington Pattern 1914 Rifles and P'13 bayonets were sent from the Remington factory to India in 1916. This will be shown in his soon to be published new book, page 377. I suppose this scabbard may have started out as one of those 100.000 and is now a good paring for the IG stamped Remington 1907 bayonet. In the mean time I will keep searching for more information as there must be more than one still standing. Cheers, TR Ask and yee shall receive RFI 1917, marked C^17, judging from the Remington also 1915 with a C^15 it may well be the date? it is a full length and has not been cut down. kind regards g Edited 3 April by navydoc16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April I also present C^13 from a rare Pakistani 1946 NWR Mk.II*- Refurbished with C^13 Throat. underneath that I have added a D.P. Ashoka “4 Lion” from 1964. Of note when they refurbished and DP’ed the bayonet they installed a brand new RE Remington tip- RE produced a hell of alot of scabbard components, enough that even after the mass refurbs of Indian bayonets they still had boxes of new ones in the 60s. I have purchased many late and “direct from stores” Indian bayonets and I would say the great majority have RE components that appear to be New and not reconditioned. kind regards g Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattr82 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April Found something in an earlier post here of GWF. The same C^ markings appear in this post on a P1907 bayonet. A C^18 on a 1928 dated scabbard and....a C^15 on the British manufactured chape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t.ryan Posted 3 April Author Share Posted 3 April Well; thanks to navydoc16 and Mattr82; that mystery C^# mark is popping out of the woodwork everywhere now. To make matters worse I had already seen it on Andrew1966,s scabbard back in May last year and had completely over looked it. Thanks everyone for taking the time to search this somewhat mystery mark out and coming up with those extra photo's showing similar markings. I am sure the search will help others out in the future now that a few good photo's and remarks have been logged here. A great effort today, and it just goes to show; keep digging, someone will know or find something. Cheers, TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April So this photo from Andrew's thread that was linked above is the clincher, with the C^ mark being found on a 1928 dated scabbard made at Cawnpore. 1. The C mark is an Indian inspection marking relating to work done at the Cawnpore Harness and Saddlery Factory. 2. The Number attached to this Indian inspection marking is an individual Inspector's number and not in any way related to a date. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navydoc16 Posted 3 April Share Posted 3 April 1 hour ago, shippingsteel said: So this photo from Andrew's thread that was linked above is the clincher, with the C^ mark being found on a 1928 dated scabbard made at Cawnpore. 1. The C mark is an Indian inspection marking relating to work done at the Cawnpore Harness and Saddlery Factory. 2. The Number attached to this Indian inspection marking is an individual Inspector's number and not in any way related to a date. Cheers, SS Seems you are correct here are better photos of mine below. NWR 1946 has a C^15 and dated 1944. FR56 Blue Blade is C^3 and dated 1942. - the more you look the more you find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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