Walter Davison. Unable to locate Grandfathers WW1 infomation.

[travers61]

Thank you for posting the DLI photos.

There are a few parades reported in the Wearside papers that 47th (DLI) Bn RE took part in between 1936-1940 including a joint Wearside Terriers parade in May 1937 & a Wearside recruitment parade in May 1939. It would have been in early 1939 that some TA infantry battalions were recruiting to form duplicate units following the Munich Crisis.

The 47th's Annual Camp was due to be at Oakham, Rutland in 1938.

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1930-01-01/1939-12-31?basicsearch=searchlight royal engineers parade&exactsearch=false&place=sunderland%2c durham%2c england&county=durham%2c england&retrievecountrycounts=false&mostspecificlocation=sunderland%2c durham%2c england

Edited 19 March by travers61

[Trish22c]

58 minutes ago, travers61 said:

Thank you for posting the DLI photos.

There are a few parades reported in the Wearside papers that 47th (DLI) Bn RE took part in between 1936-1940 including a joint Wearside Terriers parade in May 1937 & a Wearside recruitment parade in May 1939. It would have been in early 1939 that some TA infantry battalions were recruiting to form duplicate units following the Munich Crisis.

The 47th's Annual Camp was due to be at Oakham, Rutland in 1938.

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1930-01-01/1939-12-31?basicsearch=searchlight royal engineers parade&exactsearch=false&place=sunderland%2c durham%2c england&county=durham%2c england&retrievecountrycounts=false&mostspecificlocation=sunderland%2c durham%2c england

Ooo Fabulous. I'll look at these when I'm over the history centre on Saturday. 😊

[Trish22c]

On 18/03/2024 at 21:50, travers61 said:

Trying not to stray too far away from the forums remit but relevant to the photo possibly being 1930's

I would recommend for his WW2 service posting on this site that operates in a similar way to the GWF

 http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php

 

I note that the Sunderland Rifles (by then 7th Bn DLI) were one on the TA Units converted to a searchlight role in 1936 and became 47th (DLI) AA Battalion, RE.  Later in 1940 they transferred to the Royal Artillery becoming 47 (The Durham Light Infantry) Searchlight Regiment RA (TA).  The Home Guard also operated AA guns in some cities & would usually have been badged as DLI rather than RA or RE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunderland_Rifles

 

Durham Home Guard Records are indexed here but I couldn't find anyone with Walter's exact details so his records for WW2 should be with the Mod/National Archives.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/durham-home-guard-records-1939-1945/

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

 

If you can't find him at home on the 1939 Register it's possibly because he was in a Territorial AA or Searchlight Unit as they had been mobilised a month before in August 1939.

 

Travers

 

I have just got the 1939 register, and he's not listed. Just my nana and their children bar his son, you've guessed it another Walter. But I have his records. 125th anti tank reg. Captured by the Japanese and put to work on the railways. He survived the war, but unfortunately not a drink driver in the 80s.

[Trish22c]

Just received an email back from the Northumberland Fusiliers museum after contacting them. They do have records and are looking into it to confirm if definitely him or not. 

 

Edited 21 March by Trish22c

[Matlock1418]

36 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

Just received this back from the Northumberland Fusiliers museum after contacting them. 

Such a shame they don't seem to have bothered to tell you where they got their information from - rather unprofessional by them and unhelpful for you in my opinion.

If you don't have the source(s) from them I'd be getting back to them and asking for it(them).

M

[Trish22c]

27 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Such a shame they don't seem to have bothered to tell you where they got their information from - rather unprofessional by them and unhelpful for you in my opinion.

If you don't have the source(s) from them I'd be getting back to them and asking for it(them).

M

They charge £60 for research, I've replied back to confirm it's definitely him based on all the wrong info I have come across so far. 

I've asked them to double check their information and provided further details, such as addresses from census, parents names etc. It's a lot of money to pay if incorrect, but valuable if right. I haven't paid yet until I'm 100% sure. 

Edited 21 March by Trish22c

[corisande]

They got their info from the Medal Roll. The desertion is also referred to on MIC

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, corisande said:

The desertion is also referred to on MIC

The MIC suggests that the initial foreiture of the medals for desertion was struck-through/was later reversed and they were restored.

Makes you wonder what went on for desertion to be initially recorded, though the later restoration is probably not that unusual as there was a later change of policy on forfeiture and then restoration.

M

[Trish22c]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

The MIC suggests that the initial foreiture of the medals for desertion was struck-through/was later reversed and they were restored.

Makes you wonder what went on for desertion to be initially recorded, though the later restoration is probably not that unusual as there was a later change of policy on forfeiture and then restoration.

M

Could it be due to him being wounded as she first mentioned. 

He's a mind bender isn't he!! 

[kenf48]

On 17/03/2024 at 20:21, Trish22c said:

in 1921 he was down as living in Sunderland as a soldier no mention of which area. do you want the addresses?

Back tracking to the 1921 Census where he is listed as a 'Soldier'

If we look at the original document it would appear to have been amended by the enumerator in red ink

When originally completed, presumably by the head, his father a widower.  'Soldier' is written under Employment and Place of Work is listed as Chatham (the Depot of the Royal Engineers).  These have been struck through and Soldier in red ink inserted under personal occupation.

It begs the question was the Census form filled out correctly?  It also goes some way to the original identification of the cap badge

Courtesy of FMP

I would save your £60 for now afaik the Northumberland Fusiliers were never at Chatham

There is a possibility he was re-engaged under the Emergency 90 day enlistment for the 1921 State of Emergency  but these tended to be stationed locally

[Tawhiri]

The medal index card for Walter Davison, service number 22119, serving with the Northumberland Fusiliers also shows that he first entered a theatre of war on 21 September 1915, the theatre code indicating that it was Gallipoli. A look at the Long Long Trail shows that the 8th Battalion of the Northumberland Fusiliers moved to Gallipoli in July 1915, so presumably he joined the battalion at a later date as part of a draft of reinforcements. After Gallipoli the battalion first went to Egypt in January 1916, before moving to France in July 1916, which then gives you the two fronts he was engaged on.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/northumberland-fusiliers/

Looking at the Weekly Casualty lists, the wounding of Davison, 22119, W. (Newcastle) was reported in the list of 12 November 1918, so not 1917 as the Northumberland Fusiliers museum claimed, and unlikely to be linked to his apparent desertion in 1917.

https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/194168261

Edited 21 March by Tawhiri

[kenf48]

He's not named, but the winners of the Pinkney Cup in 1936 were from the 7th Durham Light Infantry. I this the newspaper clipping you got from the DLI?

The Newcastle Journal Monday October 5 1936 courtesy of BNA on FMP

 

Presumably if serving with the 7th DLI (TA) in 1936 and in June 1921 his records will not have been completely lost. He does not appear to be completely unknown to their archives.  Do they hold muster rolls?

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Trish22c said:

Could it be due to him being wounded

Desertion ... It might have been - it certainly wasn't unknown for soldiers recovering in hospitals to go Absent Without Leave [AWOL] for a period(s) of time

Place, duration and circumstances could make a big difference as to how these things were considered and handled

Additional to short AWOL, there was Desertion and there was Desertion - of differing severities as far as the Army was concerned

Starting in the UK as your GF was in hospital in the UK

• AWOL [for longer than a straight-forward sort of short AWOL of a few hours], but with an apparent intention to return - men absent for more than a few hours/a few days would be classed as deserters but could then potentially return of their own volition after a few days to face the music and get relatively lenient treatment.
• AWOL but with an apparent lack of intention to return - full blown deserters - these would be treated much more seriously

Both would have been initially treated/recorded as deserters but whether the case situation then later affected forfeiture of medals and/or then their restoration I can't say.  That there was a later change of policy and frequent medal restoration is not in doubt.

[I know of a man, a Sgt, who went AWOL for 24 days in early 1919 in the UK, after two weeks there was a Court hearing & Record on Army Form B 115 and, after vouluntarily surrendering himself to the police, on his return all he got was a reprimand and loss of those days' pay.  He'd been hacked-off waiting for demob - he just wanted a few days at home with his newly-wed wife - he'd already had leave during which he had got married, had his leave extended, returned and then wanted more time with his beloved - perhaps his wife also encouraged him to go back - but it doesn't seem to have gone too badly for him - clearly as the war was over he got off much lighter than many during the war! He received his medals]

Overseas in a ToW,

• Absence and especially leaving the field in the face of the enemy and where you ended up geographically from where a man should have been had a significant impact [the further away the more clear the intention not to return so far as the Army was concerned] = much more seriously considered/treated and of course we are aware of those shot at dawn with many others and relatives being deprived of their medals

Something else for you to explore.  Great isn't it?

M

[Tawhiri]

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Desertion ... It might have been - it certainly wasn't unknown for soldiers recovering in hospitals to go Absent Without Leave [AWOL] for a period(s) of time

The only problem being that his sole appearance in the Weekly Casualty lists held by the National Library of Scotland was in the list of 12 November 1918, so his wounding happened a few short weeks before the end of the war. This doesn't then seem to be obviously connected with his apparent desertion some 18 months earlier, unless there there is a record of an earlier wounding prior to May 1917.

Edited 21 March by Tawhiri

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Tawhiri said:

The only problem being that his sole appearance in the Weekly Casualty lists held by the National Library of Scotland was in the list of 12 November 1918, so his wounding happened a few short weeks before the end of the war. This doesn't then seem to be obviously connected with his apparent desertion some 18 months earlier, unless there there is a record of earlier wounding prior to May 1917.

I was not aware of the relative timings but was just mulling over some of the options.

M

[Tawhiri]

There is, however, a newspaper report from the North Star (Darlington) of Monday, 30 October 1916, which does apparently list him, although I can't tell if this is a casualty list or something else. It also gives his home town as North Shields, although this seems to be more Newcastle than Sunderland to me.

THE NORTH STAR MONDAY OCTOBER 30 1916 DARING exploits AIRMEN BOMBING TRAINS SURRENDER OF Germans IN TRENCH TO ..

... ) Coates 20633 F (Middlesbrough) Coates 15119 Lance-Corpl R (Thornley) 9973 J (Sunderland) Compton 7219 C (Newcastle) Davison 22119 (North Shields) Dickinson 18754 T (Stockton) Dixon 799 J W (Newcastle) 1565 Corpl W (Hexham) Dodds 1595 J (Wallsend): Douohoe ...

Edited to add also reported in the Newcastle Journal on the same date, and this time it's clear that it is a casualty list.

NORTHERN CASUALTIES

... Cogtfins, 9973 (Sunderland); C. Compton, 7219 (Newcastle); P. Ooulthird. (Alston); 11. Campbell, 18871 (Newcastle). W Davieon, 22119 (North Sh'elds) ; J. W. Dixon, 799 (Newcastle) ; Corporal W. 'Dixon. 1565 (Hexham); J. 1395 Acting-Corporal D. Donohoe, 4287 ...

So that would suggest he was wounded twice, firstly in September/October 1916, and again in October 1918. I am now wondering, however, whether this is actually the man we're actually looking for, because I can't reconcile a North Shields address with someone who apparently spent their entire life living in Sunderland.

Edited 21 March by Tawhiri

[Trish22c]

1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

There is, however, a newspaper report from the North Star (Darlington) of Monday, 30 October 1916, which does apparently list him, although I can't tell if this is a casualty list or something else. It also gives his home town as North Shields, although this seems to be more Newcastle than Sunderland to me.

THE NORTH STAR MONDAY OCTOBER 30 1916 DARING exploits AIRMEN BOMBING TRAINS SURRENDER OF Germans IN TRENCH TO ..

... ) Coates 20633 F (Middlesbrough) Coates 15119 Lance-Corpl R (Thornley) 9973 J (Sunderland) Compton 7219 C (Newcastle) Davison 22119 (North Shields) Dickinson 18754 T (Stockton) Dixon 799 J W (Newcastle) 1565 Corpl W (Hexham) Dodds 1595 J (Wallsend): Douohoe ...

Edited to add also reported in the Newcastle Journal on the same date, and this time it's clear that it is a casualty list.

NORTHERN CASUALTIES

... Cogtfins, 9973 (Sunderland); C. Compton, 7219 (Newcastle); P. Ooulthird. (Alston); 11. Campbell, 18871 (Newcastle). W Davieon, 22119 (North Sh'elds) ; J. W. Dixon, 799 (Newcastle) ; Corporal W. 'Dixon. 1565 (Hexham); J. 1395 Acting-Corporal D. Donohoe, 4287 ...

So that would suggest he was wounded twice, firstly in September/October 1916, and again in October 1918. I am now wondering, however, whether this is actually the man we're actually looking for, because I can't reconcile a North Shields address with someone who apparently spent their entire life living in Sunderland.

I don't think it's him if honest. Sunderland all his life right up until the 1921 census, but not on the 1939 register. 

I've got my cousin onto the Durham online records looking for me, as a follow up email from the Fusiliers Museum said was in North Shields. When I questioned her if correct person, providing more details it was then she advised to check the Durham Records online.(which is closed and not answering emails or calls, hence asking my cousin who has a subscription) I've also emailed the Sunderland records to see if they have any more information. 

He's driving me round the bend. I've got his brothers information so easily haha! 

Just now, Trish22c said:

I don't think it's him if honest. Sunderland all his life right up until the 1921 census, but not on the 1939 register. 

I've got my cousin onto the Durham online records looking for me, as a follow up email from the Fusiliers Museum said was in North Shields. When I questioned her if correct person, providing more details it was then she advised to check the Durham Records online.(which is closed and not answering emails or calls, hence asking my cousin who has a subscription) I've also emailed the Sunderland records to see if they have any more information. 

He's driving me round the bend. I've got his brothers information so easily haha! 

Ps, you lot have the patience of a saint with this twister!!