Walter Davison. Unable to locate Grandfathers WW1 infomation.

[Trish22c]

20 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

More brothers!

I again strongly suggest, should you wish to explore their service, then separate threads under each of the brothers' names please [names in title would help separate them] - we can later link them so there is a family connection

M

I will do, 😊

[Trish22c]

25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t know if it will help at all with your deliberations Trish, but the 1919 date that you quoted for your photo cannot be right given the soldier’s dress on view.  The men’s caps are the new specification type with broader, flatter and more spade like peaks issued from around 1922, plus at that time a more closely cut and thus smarter jacket was introduced to be worn with collar badges, just as can be seen in your photo.  The civilian clothes visible in the crowds also fit with the 1920s.

They also appear to be Territorial Army after it was formed in 1921.  The officer at front left is wearing the Territorial Decoration (medal) I think. 

Thank you 

You have all been so helpful and patient with me. As I mentioned in my first post, I haven't really got a clue what I'm doing Military wise doing my family research, and really appreciate your responses and suggestions even if I'm infuriating you all. 😂

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

16 hours ago, Trish22c said:

Good afternoon, thank you for adding me to the group. 

My grandad was in the Merchant Navy in 1914, but then in the 1919 peace parade in Sunderland he looks to be in a senior Army uniform. I've tried various places to find his information, but if honest, I don't really know what I'm doing. 

His name is Walter (Harding) Davison born in Sunderland 2nd Nov 1894 and died 7th Aug 1978 in Sunderland. 

(He has a nephew born 1905 with the same name from his older brother Robert).

I have attached his Merchant Navy record, and the picture of him in the peace parade some years later. Any advice would be really appreciated. 

@

Maybe @horatio2 and @KizmeRD might be able to discover more about his naval service in the Great War period?

[KizmeRD]

I too doubt that the photo is from the 19 July 1919 peace procession in Sunderland, largely because some of the medals being worn had yet to be issued by that date.

You will be very fortunate indeed to find anything relating to a Mercantile Marine Fireman dating from 1914, however there’s nothing here to indicate that prior to the war that was in fact his occupation - the 1911 Census has him listed as a Cartman.

The Board of Trade didn’t introduce this style of CR10 identity cards to merchant seamen (including a passport type photo) until September 1918 and the system operated until December 1921, after which the photo requirement was dropped and men in the home trade were excluded from the central index.

MB

Edit - Could the photo possibly be dated as late as 1937? - If so then its likely to be men from the 47th (DLI) AA Battalion, a territorial searchlight unit of the Royal Engineers (RE). 

Edited 18 March by KizmeRD

[Matlock1418]

28 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

The Board of Trade didn’t introduce this style of CR10 identity cards to merchant seamen (including a passport type photo) until September 1918 and the system operated until December 1921, after which the photo requirement was dropped and men in the home trade were excluded from the central index.

19 hours ago, Trish22c said:

It's been puzzling me for a while ... This card has printer's marks of 8/18 and 8/19 so its completion must have been after 8/19

I guess we need to enquire of the OP as to its provenance and its connection to her GF.

M

Edited 18 March by Matlock1418
add

[Trish22c]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

It's been puzzling me for a while ... This card has printer's marks of 8/18 and 8/19 so its completion must have been after 8/19

I guess we need to enquire of the OP as to its provenance and its connection to her GF.

M

Hi

This was sent to me from the National Archives Newcastle when I enquired if they held any information on my GF. 

Just now, Trish22c said:

Hi

This was sent to me from the National Archives Newcastle when I enquired if they held any information on my GF. 

Just for info, I saw my GF many times before he died and have many pictures of him at different ages and it is definitely him. 

[MerchantOldSalt]

 

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

It's been puzzling me for a while ... This card has printer's marks of 8/18 and 8/19 so its completion must have been after 8/19

I guess we need to enquire of the OP as to its provenance and its connection to her GF.

M

His CR10 Identity Card bears an entry for 12.18, December 1918, when he signed on a ship called the WAR REEF Off.No. 142754, a standard built ship completed by J L Thompson & Sons of Sunderland in the same month so it was brand new when he signed on.  The ship was soon purchased in 1919 by the Swift Steamship Co. of Hartlepool and renamed HARALD CASPAR.

Trying to find out where Davison was from 12.1918 is not possible from this one entry. If the ship was going deep sea he would have signed on for a minimum of 2 years or until the ship returned to a UK port so he might have been at sea until 12.1920 or longer, but there is no further information so it is not possible to make that assumption. He might also have only signed on for a coastal voyage of short duration. Not much help, but you know where he was in December 1918!

Tony

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Trish22c said:

This was sent to me from the National Archives Newcastle when I enquired if they held any information on my GF. 

That's fair enough - I was just hoping it had come from a box under his bed!

2 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

His CR10 Identity Card bears an entry for 12.18, December 1918, when he signed on a ship called the WAR REEF Off.No. 142754, a standard built ship completed by J L Thompson & Sons of Sunderland in the same month so it was brand new when he signed on.  The ship was soon purchased in 1919 by the Swift Steamship Co. of Hartlepool and renamed HARALD CASPAR.

Trying to find out where Davison was from 12.1918 is not possible from this one entry. If the ship was going deep sea he would have signed on for a minimum of 2 years or until the ship returned to a UK port so he might have been at sea until 12.1920 or longer, but there is no further information so it is not possible to make that assumption. He might also have only signed on for a coastal voyage of short duration. Not much help, but you know where he was in December 1918!

Thanks - I knew your expertise would be able to tease a bit more out of that document.

It is a shame we haven't his deep-sea seaman's discharge book or other similar coastal papers.

M

 

[MerchantOldSalt]

5 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

It is a shame we haven't his deep-sea seaman's discharge book or other similar coastal papers.

M

 

The Crew Agreements and Official Logbooks for the HARALD CASPAR for the years 1919 to 1926 (excepting 1925) are held by the Maritime History Archive in Newfoundland so Trish22 could apply for copies of one or more to establish how long WHD stayed on the ship, but it is very expensive.

Apart from his CR10 card I can find no other record of him serving in the Merchant Service either before during or after the war, I would think that serving as a Fireman would presuppose a certain amount of time at sea as he would most likely have started in the lower rate of Trimmer to gain experience.

Tony

[Matlock1418]

On 17/03/2024 at 17:33, Trish22c said:

My grandad was in the Merchant Navy in 1914

51 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

I would think that serving as a Fireman would presuppose a certain amount of time at sea as he would most likely have started in the lower rate of Trimmer to gain experience.

Trish, As you may determine we now have a Mercantile Marine specialist onboard 

Are you able to enlighten us as to the source(s) of this seagoing career and date? = Do you have any other document(s) you can share with us please?

M

Edited 18 March by Matlock1418
add quote

[Trish22c]

3 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

The Crew Agreements and Official Logbooks for the HARALD CASPAR for the years 1919 to 1926 (excepting 1925) are held by the Maritime History Archive in Newfoundland so Trish22 could apply for copies of one or more to establish how long WHD stayed on the ship, but it is very expensive.

Apart from his CR10 card I can find no other record of him serving in the Merchant Service either before during or after the war, I would think that serving as a Fireman would presuppose a certain amount of time at sea as he would most likely have started in the lower rate of Trimmer to gain experience.

Tony

Hi, I have asked them, and as you say it's very expensive. 

I do know he must have been home late 1919 as his son was born in June 1920, so maybe coastal voyages as you mentioned earlier. This is a right brain twister and has been for nearly 2 years. 

[Trish22c]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Trish, As you may determine we now have a Mercantile Marine specialist onboard 

Are you able to enlighten us as to the source(s) of this seagoing career and date? = Do you have any other document(s) you can share with us please?

M

I don't, that's all I have. If honest I didn't even know about the Merchant Navy. I always thought he was in the army in WW1, didn't know which regiment. I do know he was in the DLI in WW2 but was too old for active service, but was on the searchlight at what's now the territorial army centre in Dykelands road in Sunderland. 

3 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

The Crew Agreements and Official Logbooks for the HARALD CASPAR for the years 1919 to 1926 (excepting 1925) are held by the Maritime History Archive in Newfoundland so Trish22 could apply for copies of one or more to establish how long WHD stayed on the ship, but it is very expensive.

Apart from his CR10 card I can find no other record of him serving in the Merchant Service either before during or after the war, I would think that serving as a Fireman would presuppose a certain amount of time at sea as he would most likely have started in the lower rate of Trimmer to gain experience.

Tony

Thank you so much for this information. It's a bit more than I started with. 

Edited 18 March by Trish22c

[travers61]

Trying not to stray too far away from the forums remit but relevant to the photo possibly being 1930's

I would recommend for his WW2 service posting on this site that operates in a similar way to the GWF

 http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php

 

I note that the Sunderland Rifles (by then 7th Bn DLI) were one on the TA Units converted to a searchlight role in 1936 and became 47th (DLI) AA Battalion, RE.  Later in 1940 they transferred to the Royal Artillery becoming 47 (The Durham Light Infantry) Searchlight Regiment RA (TA).  The Home Guard also operated AA guns in some cities & would usually have been badged as DLI rather than RA or RE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunderland_Rifles

 

Durham Home Guard Records are indexed here but I couldn't find anyone with Walter's exact details so his records for WW2 should be with the Mod/National Archives.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/durham-home-guard-records-1939-1945/

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

 

If you can't find him at home on the 1939 Register it's possibly because he was in a Territorial AA or Searchlight Unit as they had been mobilised a month before in August 1939.

 

Travers

 

Edited 18 March by travers61

[Trish22c]

11 hours ago, travers61 said:

Trying not to stray too far away from the forums remit but relevant to the photo possibly being 1930's

I would recommend for his WW2 service posting on this site that operates in a similar way to the GWF

 http://www.ww2talk.com/index.php

 

I note that the Sunderland Rifles (by then 7th Bn DLI) were one on the TA Units converted to a searchlight role in 1936 and became 47th (DLI) AA Battalion, RE.  Later in 1940 they transferred to the Royal Artillery becoming 47 (The Durham Light Infantry) Searchlight Regiment RA (TA).  The Home Guard also operated AA guns in some cities & would usually have been badged as DLI rather than RA or RE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunderland_Rifles

 

Durham Home Guard Records are indexed here but I couldn't find anyone with Walter's exact details so his records for WW2 should be with the Mod/National Archives.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/durham-home-guard-records-1939-1945/

https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

 

If you can't find him at home on the 1939 Register it's possibly because he was in a Territorial AA or Searchlight Unit as they had been mobilised a month before in August 1939.

 

Travers

 

This is him in 1936 when he won a shooting competition. I got this from the DLI along with newspaper clippings  😊

[Trish22c]

10 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

This is him in 1936 when he won a shooting competition. I got this from the DLI along with newspaper clippings  😊

 

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

 

Those DLI photos almost certainly corroborate that he was subsequently in one on the TA Units converted to a searchlight role in 1936 mentioned by travers61.  Initially the searchlights were the responsibility of the RE who worked in tandem with the RA’s guns to provide the British Army’s anti-aircraft capabilities, but before the war a rationalisation policy led to the RA taking on responsibility for both guns and searchlights.  Your photo represents a snapshot in time.

Edited 19 March by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

 

That is not him - that man is Walter Henry Davison MM - see this link . Your man is Walter Harding Davison

[Trish22c]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

 

That is not him - that man is Walter Henry Davison MM - see this link . Your man is Walter Harding Davison

😣

[Trish22c]

4 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

😣

I do have this card also, but haven't added it previously as not sure if it's him or his nephew of the same name born 1905

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

I do have this card also, but haven't added it previously as not sure if it's him or his nephew of the same name born 1905

I think it is his nephew b. 1905

Discharged overage 1954 would make him about 50 - which would be the normal age for becoming overage.

N

[George Rayner]

That was my thought when I saw it in Fold3

George

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

3 hours ago, Trish22c said:

This is him in 1936 when he won a shooting competition. I got this from the DLI along with newspaper clippings  😊

 

 

Trish,

Just my personal opinion on colorizaton of old B&W photos.
Ths isn't criticism of the photo you posted, but rather an analysis of the way it has been processed.

Colorization adds nothing to the historical record compared to the original print.
The colorization of the uniform is wrong. It should be khaki, it comes over as a dark blue/green colour.
Additionally, some AI colorization software you can access online can soften images to make them less grainy, but in so doing can corrupt small detail or even remove it altogether.
A photo thus colorized is fine for a private album or presentation as long as you and others are aware of its limitations.
The danger is that the colorized photo will eventually find itself onto the wider web, into Ancestry Trees and so on, and very rapidly become the benchmark photo for a person.
 

Again, my own view is that you should bend over backwards to extract all available data from the original  monochrome print using a high resolution scan (1000 dpi as a minimum). That would also show off nicely the DLI collar dogs and the medal ribbons most of the men are wearing.

 

 

[Trish22c]

1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Trish,

Just my personal opinion on colorizaton of old B&W photos.
Ths isn't criticism of the photo you posted, but rather an analysis of the way it has been processed.

Colorization adds nothing to the historical record compared to the original print.
The colorization of the uniform is wrong. It should be khaki, it comes over as a dark blue/green colour.
Additionally, some AI colorization software you can access online can soften images to make them less grainy, but in so doing can corrupt small detail or even remove it altogether.
A photo thus colorized is fine for a private album or presentation as long as you and others are aware of its limitations.
The danger is that the colorized photo will eventually find itself onto the wider web, into Ancestry Trees and so on, and very rapidly become the benchmark photo for a person.
 

Again, my own view is that you should bend over backwards to extract all available data from the original  monochrome print using a high resolution scan (1000 dpi as a minimum). That would also show off nicely the DLI collar dogs and the medal ribbons most of the men are wearing.

 

 

Thank you, I agree, I dislike recoloured old pictures. It was sent to me from someone after I showed them the original. I think they thought that were doing me a favour. If honest, I prefer original black and white, and it's not something I would do. It just happened to be on my phone when I uploaded it. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 minutes ago, Trish22c said:

Thank you, I agree, I dislike recoloured old pictures. It was sent to me from someone after I showed them the original. I think they thought that were doing me a favour. If honest, I prefer original black and white, and it's not something I would do. It just happened to be on my phone when I uploaded it. 

That's good.
Have a think about a Hi-Res scan.

[Trish22c]

Just now, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

That's good.
Have a think about a Hi-Res scan.

I will, I was sent these by the DLI museum in Durham. I'll look to get them scanned at work on the big scanner.