Mystery marking on Type 30 bayonet

[shippingsteel]

Thank you Rafal. I can identify the British regiment at least.! It is marked to the 2nd Battalion, Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry which was a wartime Reserve and Training unit. 

Those W stamps don't appear to be the same font or style as the original letter W (with serif) that was stamped on the ricasso in the original post.

Cheers,  SS 

[Rafal1971]

But this W from the scabbard (or rather a piece of it) had a serif on top.

For your fun 

Another information from antique shop

This example marked on the pommel "2/16 LD 366" for the  16th (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (Queen's Westminster Rifles).

This example made in Japan by the Kokura Arsenal, and bearing thier marking at the ricasso. Further numbering to the pommel. Part of a consignment of 150,000 Type 30 Rifles and bayonets originally bound for France, which was purchased by the British Government en route and issued to the Royal Navy, and various Army units. The bulk of these weapons, approx 130,000 were later given to Russia, and a small quantity of Colonel T.E. Lawrence and his Arab forces fighting the Turkish. 

 

[shippingsteel]

Yes Rafal, I posted the link to that antique store page just above. I have no doubt there are many of the Arisaka rifles to be found in Finland, Russia and perhaps the now Baltic states with lots of interesting British markings. 

Cheers,  SS 

[shippingsteel]

Here is another photo of the Arisaka rifle in the hands of the Royal Navy during the War. (shown here principally for the benefit of 4thGordons) 

Also found on this quite frivolous webpage linked HERE as the only source that I can find ...

Cheers,  SS 

[AndyBsk]

Part of the guns used by Finnland were send from Czechoslovakia, as many were goten by CS legionairs returning post 1920 from Russia. The W8 is different on the pommel and scabbard as visible on Arisaka ricasso, unfortunally LaBar didnt wrote there about more explanation. Important thing to date a bayonet is the serial number on pommel, which were here not presented. 

Edited 11 March by AndyBsk

[DisasterDog]

The W under the 8 is of the style I ran across when searching about our serif W in the first post.  It has been noted by Japanese collectors on some late bayonets, but mostly on swords.  Some discussion here:

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/19390-the-mysterious-w-stamp/

 

[Rafal1971]

The problem is growing like a snowball :-)
What are these frogs with bayonets?

Foreign/captured weapons used by national armies are a mystery.
Unfortunately, gentlemen, it is impossible to say for sure.
EVERYONE has used captured weapons throughout the centuries
This is a principle that has prevailed since prehistoric times.

And we will continue to have fun determining whether he used or not in comfortable armchairs.
From a collector's perspective, it's fun
Wars - not necessarily

 

[shippingsteel]

8 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

Important thing to date a bayonet is the serial number on pommel, which were here not presented. 

Yes a very good point to make. With a basic manufacturing time-frame we could then start to rule out use by certain countries.

Just from the photos of bayonets posted in this short thread we can start to identify certain Patterns emerging. This is something that I believe is strongly linked to date of manufacture.

So the 2 examples posted originally, stamped with the letter W in question (with Serif) are both obviously Koishikawa (or Kokura) production with broad Square fullered blades and have No Inspection markings on ricasso.

Then we have 2 examples illustrated of Koishikawa production with verified British service markings. DisasterDog's marked to HMS Pembroke and the Antique shop bayonet to the London Regiment. Both of which show Round fullered blades complete with the Inspection marks on the ricasso.

I will post the comparison photos below to show the differences.

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 11 March by shippingsteel

[shippingsteel]

On 08/03/2024 at 09:02, L E Perch said:

I have encountered a peculiar "W" marking on a Type 30 bayonet belonging to a friend. I neglected to take a photo of the serial number, but I do not recall anything else out of the ordinary besides the "W." I struggled to find answers online, as I only found one other photo of this marking, albeit slightly different in location.

Can you advise where you located the other photo of the W marking.? Perhaps we can get the Serial number off it if it is posted online.?

Alternatively you could ask your friend to check the Serial number on the pommel of his bayonet. These numbers will help tell us the approximate date of manufacture.

Cheers,  SS 

[Rafal1971]

I would like to have your optimism that I will be able to find Arisaki bayonet number from 1201 - 1299 with W markings or rectangular fuller or anything similar.
There has been a saying about quartermastership in the Polish army for years. Art is art. It doesn't matter what it looks like, what matters is what it is. Whether it's a sock or a rifle

[L E Perch]

1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

Can you advise where you located the other photo of the W marking.? Perhaps we can get the Serial number off it if it is posted online.?

Alternatively you could ask your friend to check the Serial number on the pommel of his bayonet. These numbers will help tell us the approximate date of manufacture.

Cheers,  SS 

This other photo is from a closed thread from a while back, on different forum:

https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/386625-help-needed-with-bayonet-identification/

 

As for the serial number, the big problem here is my friend was only in town briefly and has left the bayonet in storage away from his current residence. So neither he nor I can immediately go get it. I realize this would be potentially helpful for the discussion, as it is clearly become quite vexing.

[shippingsteel]

Mr Perch, thank you for your reply. It looks like that other W marked bayonet is a dead-end as well. No serial numbers shown unfortunately so it doesn't help at all.

Personally I am now thinking that the Square fullered bayonets, as shown in your original post will be from a later period, and hence post-dating the period of British usage during WW1.

However that can not be proven without a verified serial number to rule it out so must be treated as just speculation. Not much more we can do I am afraid.

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 12 March by shippingsteel

[AndyBsk]

Maybe Rafal could add the serial on the London marked bayonet? to have a range for british delivery.

[shippingsteel]

Here is the serial number off the London Regiment marked bayonet. It appears to be 1389282 so obviously an early Koishikawa production as it should be.

Cheers,  SS 

[AndyBsk]

This should be probably 1915/16 production date by Tokyo Koishikawa.

[Rafal1971]

A bit of searching on the internet

on wood

WU

J 47?

Number 51 on pommel

Next on pommel

Y

B R K and number ?

the other sice wood 2547

japan Number 1478408

Next

on wood 2 R W Y 28

next

poor photo, but in text

British Regimentally Marked Japanese Arisaka Bayonet, fine example of a contract Arisaka bayonet regimentally marked to the top pommel 4 NL 175 for 4th Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. Two piece wooden grips, steel cross guard with muzzle ring. Single edged blade with fuller to back edge. Arsenal marks to the base of the blade. Housed in its blued steel scabbard.

 

 

[Rafal1971]

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/british-used-marked-arisaka.1184419/

There is information that the state archives contain documents about the purchase of Arisak.

 

[Rafal1971]

On some the number starts with 147....
And the same technical controls

[AndyBsk]

Very nice, both last pieces are from same delivery as only few tousand appart, i assume the 13 series pictured by SS should be from earlier contract, when is there a history of deliveries it could be dated the pieces, but from my older sources 13/14 string were made in WW1 period most real prior end of 1916.

[Rafal1971]

Reese Williams post from gunboards

 

The late Tony Edwards published a series of small books on British secondary arms in WWI. One of these covers the Arisakas. The British nomenclature was Rifle, Pattern1907. On the British Arisakas the mum was cancelled by applying the mark of the Japanese inspecting arsenal to show that the weapon was no longer in Imperial Japanese service, much like the sold-out-of-service mark applied to British weapons. All observed British Arisakas bear the three circles (stacked cannonballs) of the Tokyo arsenal. When issued by the British they were marked in the typical British fashion with a regiment abbreviation and rack number, sometimes a date. As with all British arms the markings varied slightly from regiment to regiment but most were close to the official pattern. Markings appear on the upper tang of the receiver or on the tang of the buttplate, sometimes on the wood. There doesn't seem to have been a formal acceptance process so these rifles don't have a /|\ stamp. The British bought about 130,000 but the number may have been as high as 150,000 Type 30 and Type 38 rifles with a matching number of bayonets. By 1915 the rifles were being removed from service and as many as 128,000 were sold to Russia with shipments beginning in late 1915. Various batches were shipped to Russia in declining amounts until nearly the end of the war. In 1925 there were still 17,418 Arisakas in stores in the British system. Disposal of these is unclear but it is believed they were sold to a private firm who sold them on to Sweden with Finland being the ultimate buyer. I have also heard that some of the Russian rifles ended up in Finland, but that source may have been unaware of the 17,000 odd that came through Sweden. Several British companies made ammunition and chargers for the .256 (6.5mm) rifles during WWI including Kynoch, Royal Laboratories and Norton Metals.

[shippingsteel]

To further broaden the range of Serial numbers found on the British bayonets, especially on the lower side. There is a 1290264 recorded on an example I remember posted years ago by member Sommewalker ( who now goes by Calibre792x57.y) Bayonet was marked to the Manchesters as well as the Royal Marines.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/186074-arisaka-bayonets/

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 12 March by shippingsteel

[shippingsteel]

Another good example of the early Koishikawa pattern in this photo that was posted above by Rafal. Clearly marked on the pommel to the Berkshire Yeomanry regiment (BRK) and showing the Rounded fuller together with the Inspection marking stamped on the ricasso. 

Cheers,  SS 

[L E Perch]

I think it is worth mentioning, even in spite of the lack of photos I have, that I do not recall there being any form of regimental markings on the pommel or anything of the sort. Aside from the ''W," nothing out of the ordinary. 

[ColonelKlink1942]

2 hours ago, L E Perch said:

I think it is worth mentioning, even in spite of the lack of photos I have, that I do not recall there being any form of regimental markings on the pommel or anything of the sort. Aside from the ''W," nothing out of the ordinary. 

I've been looking around as well, and on the other forum I posted this to, one gentleman also suspects it is some form of inspection stamp. Regardless, that makes for one great conversation piece among collectors and enthusiasts! I love trying to uncover the history and the story behind it all. I hope our collective efforts help you!

[AndyBsk]

1290264 is little out of range of 150000 pcs delivery anyway the Japanese could not have send complete one string of serials, there could be some older stuff inside, or the string could be not complete in serial range. It would be nice to made a chart with british units and japan serials.