auchonvillerssomme Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 Is there any significance in an Arisaka bayonet being marked on its pommel with English letters and numbers? I have an example with the serial ??320C89. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 The Japanese use Indo-Arabic numerals for their serial numbers, so that is normal. If it is a bayonet that was used by Britain in WWI it might have normal style British regimental markings, but few seem to have been marked. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 22 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2012 There is something about the font that niggles me slightly, now I have taken a photo and looked more carefully the 'C' may be a '0'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 If it is a bayonet that was used by Britain in WWI it might have normal style British regimental markings, but few seem to have been marked. I believe that most Arisaka 0.256-in rifles, and bayonets, were used for drill and training purposes, so might not have been issued to individual soldiers on a permanent basis. I would still expect to see some regimental markings, or at least a WD and broad-arrow, if it was a British item. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 I wouldn't be too concerned, it was normal for the bayonets to be serial numbered. I don't collect these (we had a bad experience in New Guinea) but HERE is a Link. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 22 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2012 That is a statement you can't leave there 'We had a bad experience in New Guinea'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 Take it how you will - suffice to say that members of the family have served in various conflicts, and I have always listened and still respect their thoughts. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 I believe that most Arisaka 0.256-in rifles, and bayonets, were used for drill and training purposes, so might not have been issued to individual soldiers on a permanent basis. I would still expect to see some regimental markings, or at least a WD and broad-arrow, if it was a British item. Ron The bayonets were originally numbered to a rifle by the Japanese as is the one Mick has. Whether or not a rifle was issued to an individual soldier in British service has no bearing on these markings. As I said previously, out of the 150,000 rifles and bayonets received many were not marked by the British at all. None of the rifles or carbines are marked with inspection stamps and only a relative few have regimental marks. Those bayonets that I have seen marked were usually marked on the grips. Rifles were usually marked on the rear receiver tang and for some reason carbines seem to have been marked either on the butt or the butt plate tang. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 22 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 22 October , 2012 Apologies SS, I read your comment the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 When I was collecting bayonets it was difficult and expensive to record one's collection using photos, so I did scale drawings which had the advantage of being able to draw markings to a larger scale than the bayonet. This is my drawing of my Arisaka with British Markings on the pommel - in this case the 8th Manchesters and then the Royal Marines. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 That is interesting, SW. When I was researching my British Arisaka book I came across a Type 38 Rifle (Patt' 1907), serial number 741641, marked to the 8th Manchesters on the receiver tang and to the Royal Marines on the butt. They obviously transferred both rifles and bayonets. Regards Tonye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 22 October , 2012 Share Posted 22 October , 2012 The serial number stamped into the top of the pommel according to my record was 1290264 if it is of any help. For those who wonder if their Arisaka could have been in British service, one way of differentiating them is that bayonets in Japanese service seem invariably to have been well sharpened, whereas of the three British marked examples I have had all were left unsharpened. The loop for the frog is also of much lighter construction and has no boss around the securing screw. This is a feature of Japanese 'export' bayonets, I believe.- SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 October , 2012 Share Posted 23 October , 2012 When I was collecting bayonets it was difficult and expensive to record one's collection using photos, so I did scale drawings which had the advantage of being able to draw markings to a larger scale than the bayonet. That is really a superb line drawing - they seem to capture so much more than a photo - really a work of art with all that added character. I would love to see your whole collection of drawings.! Of the three British Arisakas that you had, were they all marked with the same makers symbol.? I think they all should be from the Koishikawa (Tokyo) arsenal. May be another thing to watch for.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calibre792x57.y Posted 26 October , 2012 Share Posted 26 October , 2012 S<S. Yes, all had the Tokyo Arsenal stamp. - I originally had three albums of scale drawings but now only one of them has survived. The others went with the collection. - SW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 27 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2012 The blade on the example I pictured above has been ground to only around 10 inches above the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 October , 2012 Share Posted 27 October , 2012 Mick, what is the makers mark shown on the ricasso.? Does it show 4 connected circles (representing stacked cannonballs).? If it has another mark it will be later period (WW2) As Sommewalker mentioned above the sharpening is not a good sign for British use as they were only used for training. The Japanese used bayonets are often seen sharpened. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 28 October , 2012 Looking at the link you gave above it is a 'National Denki under Kokura supervision'. It is probably me but I can't see any production date on the site for the maker. I also have a Japanese sword from the same source, a subject that I also know nothing, which is a discussion for elsewhere. I think they have been together for about 20 years I have had them (although I did part with another Arisaka a while back so can't be 100%) and I always assumed they came together from a ?house clearance but i have been a terrible record keeper and my collecting is so eclectic I can't remember! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 October , 2012 Share Posted 28 October , 2012 Looking at the link you gave above it is a 'National Denki under Kokura supervision'. It is probably me but I can't see any production date on the site for the maker. Thanks for that Mick, so that makes it easy - definitely of later WW2 period production and definitely not a possibility for any British use during the Great War (sorry.!) The Kokura arsenal was operating between 1935-1945 and was one of the leading manufacturers, often working with the smaller industrial firms during the war (WW2) As I indicated earlier, to possibly be of the GW era it would need to be made by the Koishikawa (Tokyo) arsenal as they were the ONLY producer operating at the time. While the Koishikawa arsenal was the forerunner of Kokura, and they used the same stacked cannonball symbol, yours is a WW2 job manufactured by a subcontractor. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 28 October , 2012 I may well trade it in then, I'm out at antique markets and shops in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire all day today so who knows what I might find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 October , 2012 Share Posted 28 October , 2012 Thats what I've been doing today actually - without much luck. However had a much better day yesterday at the Militaria fair - I love the finds and the bargaining.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 24 May , 2013 Share Posted 24 May , 2013 I saw one of those British marked arisaka bayonets today at an antique shop in fair condition but at $35, probably reasonable, I wasn't sure what it was and thought it may initially have been a P13 variant except with a hooked quillion, it had bend test marks and numerous others. May go back tomorrow and check if it's still there. I didn't notice if it had any regimental numbers. Will let you know tomorrow. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 25 May , 2013 Share Posted 25 May , 2013 If you saw a British marked Arisaka bayonet for $35.00 buy it and I will double your money instantly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 25 May , 2013 Share Posted 25 May , 2013 Picked up the bayonet today, sorry no images, however for the benefit of the experts i will describe as well as I can, ricasso left side, Kings Crown over GR (over) 1913 (over) 7 13 (over) EFD ricasso right side broad arrow (over) small crown over T6 over E, (over) small broad arrow over EFD over 35? (next to) small crown over T6 over E., finally bend test X. Hooked quillion end in a round tip equal sides and NOT spatula shaped Grips contoured two piece with iron screws no extra washers, meets the pommel squarely not tapered., pommel, enfield shaped rounded, no oil hole Blade fullered normal enfield style, with blueing from the guard to the beginning edge of the fuller. To be honest I am still not sure exactly what I have, is it an Arisaka or a P13 with a hooked quillion?? The locking button is at present frozen so I cannot test it for fit. Opinions anyone? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 25 May , 2013 Share Posted 25 May , 2013 The markings you have described would appear to make it a Pattern 1913 Trials bayonet and, if genuine, a very scarce beast indeed with production of only @1,200 according to Skennerton and Richardson The muzzle ring internal diameter should be 15.5mm and examined from end on will be a good bit higher than a p1907 bayonet mounting ring. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 25 May , 2013 Share Posted 25 May , 2013 Thanks Chris, I just measured the muzzle ring and it is indeed 15.5mm (int diameter), the bayonet has no appearance of having been ever touched, no sign of welding, cleaning, restoration or anything unusual. There is some pitting on the blade and it has the overall appearance of age/neglect but fortunately well short of being described as 'relic', the grip screws appear to have never been removed. Although I am not a bayonet expert I have every reason to believe that it is a genuine 'sleeper', which puts me in another quandary, should I attempt restoration or leave it as it is. I think the latter. what say you? regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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