Mystery marking on Type 30 bayonet

[Rafal1971]

Or maybe check the sales contracts with first
National Archives. Post from Gunboards
If they have been preserved, it may be enough to check whether there are any weapons numbers included in the contracts

 

Post z Gunboards

AlanD

337 posts · Joined 1969

#6 · Feb 21, 2021

Total number of Arisakas purchased was indeed 150,000. This is confirmed with documentation in the National Archives. What is unknown is the quantity of rifles verses carbines.

[shippingsteel]

On 11/10/2009 at 07:22, TonyE said:

As such, it is wrong to describe them as British contract rifles, in so far as they were not make specifically for Britain.

The first 50,000 rifles had originally been offered by Japan to France, but were passed on to us, and the remaining rifles and carbines also came from Japanese stocks as far as I have been able to find out.

 

15 hours ago, AndyBsk said:

1290264 is little out of range of 150000 pcs delivery anyway the Japanese could not have send complete one string of serials, there could be some older stuff inside, or the string could be not complete in serial range. It would be nice to made a chart with british units and japan serials.

Andy, as you can see from what TonyE described above in an older thread, there was never any "British Contract" for the Arisaka rifles. And they came in separate lots so the serial numbers will be all over the place. 

The first 50,000 rifles were passed on by the French, and the remaining rifles came out of Japanese stocks. So there will be NO serial "string" or "block" and the range of numbers will be quite extended.

It is always interesting to build up that range from some known marked examples though.

Cheers,  SS 

[bert.f]

Hello,

scan from the book, maybe it will help.

 

On a Polish internet forum there is a photo of a "typ 30" bayonet with the number 421 on the back of the handle and the letter

"W" on the ricasso.

 

[AndyBsk]

I believe the large number came from Japan as a block (as they were delivered as new rifles directly from work), for this speaks the 13/14 series reported pieces, but some of the pieces could be out of range when delivered separately. For more info You would need many reported british marked pieces.

[Rafal1971]

2 hours ago, bert.f said:

Hello,

scan from the book, maybe it will help.

 

On a Polish internet forum there is a photo of a "typ 30" bayonet with the number 421 on the back of the handle and the letter

"W" on the ricasso.

 

 

Cześć Robert

The photo looks like it's from Larry Johnson's book Japanese Bayonets

[shippingsteel]

4 hours ago, bert.f said:

Hello,

scan from the book, maybe it will help.

On a Polish internet forum there is a photo of a "typ 30" bayonet with the number 421 on the back of the handle and the letter

"W" on the ricasso.

Thank you Bert for adding the scan. There is that W again, in same font with Serif.! 

Any chance the bayonet on the Polish internet forum has a Serial number.?? Can you provide a link to that Forum.?

Cheers,  SS

[Rafal1971]

Warrelics forum 2022

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/japanese-militaria/koishikawa-arsenal-type-30-a-820810/

In my post on the Type 32 sword, I show an early Type 30 from around 1907. I base my dating (guess) here on the data that can be gleaned from the supply of rifles and bayonets to Britain by Japan in 1914 and 1915 to supplement supplies as Britain ramped up its army in the early days of WW1. Before WW1 (and until 1915) British unit armourers often stamped weapons with regimental markings and rack numbers. The highest bayonet production serial number I have seen on a British unit marked Type 30 bayonet is 1478408, so the latest that could have been made was 1915.

[AndyBsk]

I assume here are 2 items joined together, W stamped Koishikawa made bayonets of which i dont saw any with british units marking? and british delivered Japan Arisakas in range of 13/14 series by Tokyo Koishikawa arsenal and british unit marked.

[shippingsteel]

That highest "British used" serial number quoted as 1478408 has already been posted above on this thread. It is the bayonet with Berkshire Yeomanry markings stamped on the pommel. The writer of that piece (Tony) was once a contributing member of this Forum known as Msdt.

Cheers,  SS 

[Rafal1971]

Markings on Arisak rifles

two W without sherifs

Two letter B and S with sherifs 

[DisasterDog]

I don’t have time to look it up today, but in researching my example I seem to recall serial numbers topping out somewhere around the 1500000-1550000 mark.  My example is quite close at 1496495.

[shippingsteel]

With the helpful input of both Bert and Rafal, I now believe we have finally found the ANSWER to what that annoying W actually means.!! 

The photos from Rafal show the letters B and S on the rifles which appear in very similar font to the letter W. So I researched what they mean and they are the barrel proofs that Koishikawa used on the earlier rifles, changing between these letters around serial number 800,000.

So this got me thinking that the W could also be an earlier marking. With Bert's mention of the Polish forum example marked on the "back of the handle" (ie. tang) this tipped me off as I had seen the tang serials described as "earlier". In fact they are MUCH earlier only being found on around the first 250,000 bayonets they made at Koishikawa.

And it so happens that this letter W is found to occur on these VERY early bayonets that are stamped with the serials on the tang, as shown in this photo below.

There is a lot more discussion on this Gunboards thread linked below. However the consensus is that the letter W is an early Koishikawa Inspection marking which was initially used before they moved to the Japanese script characters. 

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-type-30-bayonets-with-serial-on-tang.110737/

And of course this considerably pre-dates any British use of the Arisaka rifles and bayonets during WW1. For example the letter W was in use up to approximately Serial #250,000 whilst the British service Arisaka Serials are ranging between approximately #1,300,000 - #1,500,000 from observations of British marked examples.

Cheers,  SS 

[L E Perch]

6 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

With the helpful input of both Bert and Rafal, I now believe we have finally found the ANSWER to what that annoying W actually means.!! 

The photos from Rafal show the letters B and S on the rifles which appear in very similar font to the letter W. So I researched what they mean and they are the barrel proofs that Koishikawa used on the earlier rifles, changing between these letters around serial number 800,000.

So this got me thinking that the W could also be an earlier marking. With Bert's mention of the Polish forum example marked on the "back of the handle" (ie. tang) this tipped me off as I had seen the tang serials described as "earlier". In fact they are MUCH earlier only being found on around the first 250,000 bayonets they made at Koishikawa.

And it so happens that this letter W is found to occur on these VERY early bayonets that are stamped with the serials on the tang, as shown in this photo below.

There is a lot more discussion on this Gunboards thread linked below. However the consensus is that the letter W is an early Koishikawa Inspection marking which was initially used before they moved to the Japanese script characters. 

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/japanese-type-30-bayonets-with-serial-on-tang.110737/

And of course this considerably pre-dates any British use of the Arisaka rifles and bayonets during WW1. For example the letter W was in use up to approximately Serial #250,000 whilst the British service Arisaka Serials are ranging between approximately #1,300,000 - #1,500,000 from observations of British marked examples.

Cheers,  SS 

I think this is probably the most convincing explanation I have seen, especially in light of the earlier photo posted of the inspection marks. I'm sure there is more to be discovered, but that is satisfying for me. I appreciate all the help from everyone!

[AndyBsk]

Thanks SS for adding this, as mentioned before japan rifle serials are the key to understand and date japan bayonets.

[Rafal1971]

Although I am not familiar with Japanese rifles, I started checking their markings on this website and contacted its creator.
I am waiting for confirmation of the question about the letter W from the collector Arisaka rifles, which will probably be confirmed by SS's statement.
Here is his response and the address of the great Arisaka website

I’m not as well versed with bayonets as I am the rifles, but feel free to send a photo to this email. If I recall that’s a proof mark found on earlier Type 30 bayonets. 

 

-Conrad

A Guide to the Japanese Type 99 Arisaka (weebly.com)

Thanks all for having fun solving this puzzle. Hopefully more 

 

Best 

[Rafal1971]

And if someone wants to play with deciphering it, use one of the shopping portals...

[trajan]

On 09/03/2024 at 06:39, shippingsteel said:

Also I note the interesting thread that was previously linked above, which I will again link here.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/308103-british-arisaka-bayonet-assistance

I point out the letters PB stamped on a couple of examples, which apparently stands for Pembroke Dockyard, which was a Royal Naval establishment.

I have never been happy with this explanation for PB which was made by the IWM, I believe, on no given evidence. As SS notes, Pembroke, where my granddad was stationed briefly in 1918, was known as Pembroke (Royal) Dockyard... So why PB? No, I have no alternative explanation, just idly throwing the cat among the pigeons!

[DisasterDog]

4 hours ago, trajan said:

I have never been happy with this explanation for PB which was made by the IWM, I believe, on no given evidence. As SS notes, Pembroke, where my granddad was stationed briefly in 1918, was known as Pembroke (Royal) Dockyard... So why PB? No, I have no alternative explanation, just idly throwing the cat among the pigeons!

PB corresponds to Pembroke in The Broad Arrow (MkI).

[trajan]

15 hours ago, DisasterDog said:

PB corresponds to Pembroke in The Broad Arrow (MkI).

Yes, but that identification is made on what basis? I.e., is there any proof? HMS Pembroke had a Royal Marine garrison, but also housed army units from time to time. It could be 'Pembroke Barracks', but I have not found any evidence to support the idea that an army base might mark its own weapons.

[shippingsteel]

The Royal Naval Barracks, Chatham was otherwise known (for weird Naval administrative purposes) as HMS PEMBROKE. It was a MAJOR barracks, training establishment and "manning station" during WW1.

Sadly (and almost infamously) it was also subject to a devastating bombing raid there which killed hundreds. It is a story which should be remembered.

Considering it was a sizeable training barracks under the auspices of the RN at that time, it would have most likely utilised many hundreds of Arisaka rifles. The manner that DisasterDog's bayonet is marked with multiple "rack numbers" definitely suggests that it was a garrison used example.

As for references the "Instructions for Armourers", 1912 (amended 1916), Appendix IX, List III mentions Pembroke as being marked as PB. So the precedent for that marking had already been set, and the relationship to the Naval base could obviously be quite real. This seems to be how the IWM saw it as well.

Cheers,  SS 

Edited 11 April by shippingsteel

[trajan]

Thanks SS for confirming my reference to HMS Pembroke as the official name of the place was correct. No need to shout it outloud though!  Thanks also for checking the unit markings - as you say it is on List III, p. 194.