15th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

[fumblina]

Hi,

I've got tangled up with all the Yorkshire regiments and the merges of different battalions etc, can someone help please?

I have a relative Samuel Tweddle Gibson who enlisted in Sunderland in Oct 1916 to the Yorkshire Regiment #44904 and was called up in March 1917 as assigned to the 15th Y.R. battalion, then transferred to 3rd Yorkshire in Dec 1917.  From conduct sheets he seems to be stationed at West Hartlepool during both these periods. 

 3/Green Howard were in Hartlepool at this time, but if he was in the Green Howards then the 15th Reserve Battalion became 10th Training Reserve Bn in 2nd Reserve Brigade in Sept 1916 and wouldn't have existed in March 1917

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/alexandra-princess-of-waless-own-yorkshire-regiment-green-howards/

The 15th (1st Leeds) West Yorkshire Regiment seem to be in France in 1917 https://wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=5039

On 1 September 1916 Local Reserve units were incorporated into the Training Reserve (TR):  the 15th East Yorkshire (Hull Pals) was absorbed by 15th (Reserve) Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_Pals#14th_&_15th_(Reserve)_Battalions to form 91st Training Reserve Battalion.  It was redesignated 270th (Infantry) Bn, Training Reserve, on 1 July 1917 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnsley_Pals#15th_(Reserve)_Battalion

So if 15/W Yorks were in France and there was no 15th in Green Howards, East Yorks, or Yorks 7 Lancs - was there another Yorkshire regiment??

Major Tristram is one of the officers who signed off on a punishment for him and he was with West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2261347/william-barrington-tristram/

He got transferred to 29/DLI #101757 later so all paperwork lists him as DLI.

Does anyone know where he was assigned to please?

Bonus points for an explanation of 2 days transfer to the horse depot in Willesden!

Thanks

Work in progress but I'm doing his profile here if anyone is interested https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gibson-26726

[RussT]

The record above shows that he was called up to the 15th TR (Training Reserve) Battalion in March 1917.

Regards

Russ

[fumblina]

4 minutes ago, RussT said:

The record above shows that he was called up to the 15th TR (Training Reserve) Battalion in March 1917.

So this is what would have been previously the 13th (Reserve) Bn, the Lancashire Fusiliers based in Brocton? 

"On 1 September 1916 the 2nd Reserve battalions were transferred to the Training Reserve (TR) and the battalion was redesignated 15th Training Reserve Bn, still in 3rd Reserve Bde at Brocton. On 4 July 1917 it became 267th (Infantry) Battalion, TR, and by August it had moved to Witham in Essex and joined 218th Brigade in 73rd Division. On 24 October 1917 it transferred to the Leicestershire Regiment as 52nd (Graduated) Battalion."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Royal_Lancashire_Militia_(Rifles)#13th_(Reserve)_Battalion

Samuel has a very full conduct sheet covering most months in 1917 and all say he was in West Hartlepool not Brocton or Essex. This is the conduct sheet.  The stamp showing the regiment is too faint to read well but looking closely it might say 3rd (something) York?  Note that the first offence is prior to the date he was transferred to the 15th TR.

Is it possible he was already in the 3/York at this time in West Hartlepool but for some reason it was not put on the document showing postings and the 16 December 1917 "Retransfer" is just a correction of a clerical error?  

Would the Corps section of the Record of Service have been completed once he transferred to 3rd Yorkshire then?

[FROGSMILE]

Keep in mind that 3rd Yorkshire were a Special Reserve Battalion (as all ‘3rds’ were for line infantry regiments with just two regular battalions, 1st and 2nd).  As well as carrying out a training function these SR battalions acted as holding units for men wounded and evacuated to Britain.  Such men were posted on paper to the 3rd, but weren’t bodily with the unit whilst they underwent medical and convalescent treatment.  Their progress was monitored by the 3rd and all their administration looked after there.  The same applied to officers.  Once fit, men and officers were then posted back out to battalions in the field or about to deploy and taken off the books of the 3rd Battalion.  For those serving under regular or duration of war terms of engagement the 3rd Battalion was the beating heart of their regiment.

There was just one Yorkshire Regiment (sub titled Princess Alexandra of Wales’s Own).  The other regiments of the county were the East Yorkshire Regiment, West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales’s Own) and West Riding Regiment (Duke of Wellington’s). 

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[fumblina]

This seems very complicated.  I think I have the opposite problem though where he was physically with 3rd at Hartlepool but with the 15TR on paper.  He did receive medical treatment but only after he went to France with the DLI and I think he was assigned to the Depot for that.

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, fumblina said:

This seems very complicated.  I think I have the opposite problem though where he was physically with 3rd at Hartlepool but with the 15TR on paper.  He did receive medical treatment but only after he went to France with the DLI and I think he was assigned to the Depot for that.

The TRs were sausage machine type units configured for training and with their administrative staff given only the limited tasks necessary to support that.  3rd Battalions had the dual role I mentioned and so were staffed accordingly.  Perhaps he was posted from 15 TR to the 3rd for an administrative reason, had duly arrived, but his paperwork had yet to catch up with him.  I can’t see how else it might’ve occurred.  For any soldier serving under regular, or duration of war terms of service, the 3rd Battalion was in administrative terms the beating heart of his regiment.

There was only one “Yorkshire Regiment” (secondary title Alexandra Princess of Wales’s Own).  The county’s other regiments all had a compass point prefix, East, West, etc.

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[Chris_Baker]

Samuel was mobilised in Sunderland 9 March 1917.

Initially posted to 15th Bn Training Reserve, but I am very doubtful that he ever physically joined that unit.

He was transferred to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment at West Hartlepool. Precise date not easy to read but certainly in the March, but I think it is 10 March: see image. He was numbered as Pte 44904 and the service records of 44900 Robert William Walling and 44905 George William Ranger both show that they joined the battalion on 10 March 1917. That is, Samuel went straight to West Hartlepool after being mobilised and the mention of 15th TRB is a red herring.

He remained with that unit other than for a very brief period at the No. 1 Horse Transport Depot of the Army Service Corps at Willesden in December 1917.

He transferred to the Durham Light Infantry on 20 June 1918 and went to France on 19 July 1918.

Edited 4 March by Chris_Baker

[Chris_Baker]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

...  Such men were posted on paper to the 3rd, but weren’t bodily with the unit whilst they underwent medical and convalescent treatment. ...

Regimental Depot, surely, rather than 3rd (Reserve) Battalion.

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, Chris_Baker said:

Regimental Depot, surely, rather than 3rd (Reserve) Battalion.

There seems to have been a linkage between the two Chris.  Sassoon for example was posted to 3rd Battalion at Litherland and was on their books while he was at Craiglockart, and then subsequently posted by them to various battalions in the field.  I’ve lost track of the number of men of all ranks mentioned here in GWF who were placed nominally with 3rd Battalions while they underwent treatment in the medical chain.  I think 3rd Battalions were in effect offshoots of the depot and after mobilisation in 1914, and deployment to preordained ‘war stations’, they seem to have fulfilled the dual, training and administrative hub role throughout the war.  That policy seems to have been for twofold reasons, first the depots were usually not big enough to sustain the wartime throughput and secondly the 3rd Battalions were fitted into the patchwork quilt of home defences.  I’m not sure how the functional delineation between D (depot) and 3rd Battalions actually worked, as both certainly appear on many of those individual records that have survived.

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[Chris_Baker]

I can't recall ever seeing a record of a man posted to 3rd (Reserve) Bn while he was actually in hospital.

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, Chris_Baker said:

I can't recall ever seeing a record of a man posted to 3rd (Reserve) Bn while he was actually in hospital.

Maybe I’ve conflated matters Chris, I had previously always thought it was depot too (and have posted as such a decade ago), and certainly it was between wars.  I gained the impression subsequently from reading various records posted here in the forum by members who have the necessary access online to surviving records.  

Calling @RussT and @kenf48 can you advise your take on this please?  I’m starting to doubt my interpretation of things I’ve read. 

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m starting to doubt my interpretation of things I’ve read. 

As Chris (and I definitely won't argue with the master) has said men were not posted to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion in hospital.  They were posted prior to posting to an active service Battalion overseas as this record shows.

There could be many reasons for this, in this case Pte Gibson was  deemed to have been enlisted and called up , or mobilised, aged eighteen. At this stage of the war the Army still maintained the proviso that a man could not be sent on active service overseas until nineteen, hence the 3rd Battalion.  The Battalion might also include men who were considered unfit for overseas service but had been released from hospital or for any other reason that precluded their immediate posting.

Men were posted the the 'Depot' or 'D' when effectively off strength, e.g. in hospital.  My understanding is whilst the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, as you have state, was usually based at the Regimental Depot in peacetime they had specific wartime stations e.g. 3rd (Reserve) Battalion Yorkshire Regiment was at Richmond in 1914, their war station was West Hartlepool. The Depot remained at Richmond (LLT).

It seems a fine distinction, but this man's record clearly shows he was on the 'Depot' Strength of the DLI whilst in the Military Hospital York where he died from a pleural effusion.

 

The Depot would have maintained his records as in 2 Lt Smith oic Docs Depot:-

 

6 hours ago, fumblina said:

Bonus points for an explanation of 2 days transfer to the horse depot in Willesden!

As nobody else has claimed the bonus points:-

He probably sought a transfer to the ASC but failed the proficiency test, or medical.  He does appear to have not enjoyed the best of health, scarring from burns was noted on his medical and he was classified as B3 at the Infantry Base Depot at Etaples.  Whether or not this earlier injury affected his lungs is unknown

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

 

As Chris (and I definitely won't argue with the master) has said men were not posted to the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion in hospital.  They were posted prior to posting to an active service Battalion overseas as this record shows.

There could be many reasons for this, in this case Pte Gibson was  deemed to have been enlisted and called up , or mobilised, aged eighteen. At this stage of the war the Army still maintained the proviso that a man could not be sent on active service overseas until nineteen, hence the 3rd Battalion.  The Battalion might also include men who were considered unfit for overseas service but had been released from hospital or for any other reason that precluded their immediate posting.

Men were posted the the 'Depot' or 'D' when effectively off strength, e.g. in hospital.  My understanding is whilst the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion, as you have state, was usually based at the Regimental Depot in peacetime they had specific wartime stations e.g. 3rd (Reserve) Battalion Yorkshire Regiment was at Richmond in 1914, their war station was West Hartlepool. The Depot remained at Richmond (LLT).

It seems a fine distinction, but this man's record clearly shows he was on the 'Depot' Strength of the DLI whilst in the Military Hospital York where he died from a pleural effusion.

 

The Depot would have maintained his records as in 2 Lt Smith oic Docs Depot:-

 

As nobody else has claimed the bonus points:-

He probably sought a transfer to the ASC but failed the proficiency test, or medical.  He does appear to have not enjoyed the best of health, scarring from burns was noted on his medical and he was classified as B3 at the Infantry Base Depot at Etaples.  Whether or not this earlier injury affected his lungs is unknown

Thank you Ken, that makes sense to me and chimes with my earlier understanding, way back.  The preeminent position of the depot is long standing.  I became a little confused by some of the records outlined in various threads recently and also the famous case of Sassoon, who was on the 3rd Battalion books twice if I recall correctly, once after being wounded, and once after publishing his statement against the course of the war.  In both cases I’d thought he was categorised as unfit, but perhaps I misunderstood (missed) the transition stage between depot and 3rd Battalion.  This is where I’d got the idea stuck so firmly in my mind: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/296722-the-manchesters-regular-and-new-army-battalions/#comment-3103557

 

Funnily enough I’d posted an understanding of the depot/hospital relationship not that long ago (old man brain syndrome creeping in on my part!):

1.https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/296532-how-do-i-confirm-the-identity-of-my-great-great-grandfather/page/2/#comment-3101241

2.https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/286012-acting-capt-william-carroll-mc-1st-battalion-east-yorkshire-regiment-kia-may-2017/page/2/#comment-3117342

 

 

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

My experience at looking at numerous service records over the years is that men were put on the books of the Depot whilst recovering in the UK.

If they recovered for further duty, then they were invariably posted to a Reserve Battalion e.g. the 3/Bn prior to re-deployment to an active Battalion or transferred etc.

Example: Hubert H Evans 25828 Lancashire Fusiliers

Goes to France 29/09/1916

Takes sick, moves through a number of medical units overseas and is then shipped back to the UK on 07/02/1917

Is "posted" to the LF Depot 08/02/1917

Is posted to the 3/Bn LF on 07/08/1917

Is in hospital during his time on the strength of the Depot

Regards

Russ

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RussT said:

My experience at looking at numerous service records over the years is that men were put on the books of the Depot whilst recovering in the UK.

If they recovered for further duty, then they were invariably posted to a Reserve Battalion e.g. the 3/Bn prior to re-deployment to an active Battalion or transferred etc.

Example: Herbert H Evans 25828 Lancashire Fusiliers

Goes to France 29/09/1916

Takes sick, moves through a number of medical units overseas and is then shipped back to the UK on 07/02/1917

Is "posted" to the LF Depot 08/02/1917

Is posted to the 3/Bn LF on 07/08/1917

Is is hospital during his time of the strength of the Depot

Regards

Russ

 

Thank you Russ, that confirms my increasing conviction today that I’d grown over recent times to misunderstand the transition between being on depot books while infirm (something that I posted about with conviction years ago, in the early days of the forum) and subsequent posting to 3rd Battalion before onward posting to a battalion deployed overseas.

5 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

Regimental Depot, surely, rather than 3rd (Reserve) Battalion.

Thanks for drawing this error in interpretation out Chris, it’s rather ironically brought me back to my original understanding of years back. Even in my time it was common for sick men to be posted to “depot held strength” as it was known.

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[fumblina]

You chaps are amazing.  Thanks for all the replies.  

 

4 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

That is, Samuel went straight to West Hartlepool after being mobilised and the mention of 15th TRB is a red herring.

This was my gut feeling after seeing the locations on the conduct sheet.  Thanks for the eagle eyes spotting that 10th March transfer to 3rd.  So much of his records are very faint.

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

At this stage of the war the Army still maintained the proviso that a man could not be sent on active service overseas until nineteen, hence the 3rd Battalion.

This is the answer to a question I hadn't even thought to ask.  With a June birthday he was transferred to DLI in July because he was now 19 and not because he was behaving terribly.

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

He probably sought a transfer to the ASC but failed the proficiency test, or medical.  He does appear to have not enjoyed the best of health, scarring from burns was noted on his medical and he was classified as B3 at the Infantry Base Depot at Etaples.  Whether or not this earlier injury affected his lungs is unknown

Maybe he thought working with horses would be better.  As a coal hawker he might have had (access to) a horse and cart for deliveries.  He clearly was very unhappy in barracks.  Going AWOL after only 1 day is pretty drastic!  I suspect he was either neuro-divergent or had mental health issues.  Look at his record it is hard not to judge him harshly, but none of his offences involved drink so it doesn't look like he was out living it large.

[fumblina]

Ok, I have one more question....

When enlisting he was a coal hawker.  In Dec 1918 he registered the birth of his child and gives his occupation as "Private 29th DLI (Rivet heater at Shipyard)"

Would the soldiers in barracks either after the end of the war, or even during the war have been employed in industry to keep them busy?  In my head I kind of imagine them spending time marching up and down and polishing boots, but it would be much more sensible to have had them working.

[Chris_Baker]

There were certain classes of army reserve to which they could be transferred for industrial work. It would appear in his service record, but of course it is possible that the important bit is missing/damaged/illegible.

[fumblina]

Thank you.

Edit scrap that. It was gone by then 

https://www.durhamatwar.org.uk/story/12891/#:~:text=The 25th Battalion DLI was,nor received any military training.

DLI had a 25th Works Battalion. Maybe he was temporarily assigned to that rather than transferred. It was after the end of the war so perhaps just a holding phase before being demobilised? 

God knows they must have needed the manpower at this time and there were probably rules about how many men could be put in the works Battalion? 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/labour-battalions-of-the-labour-corps/

Edited 5 March by fumblina

[kenf48]

14 hours ago, fumblina said:

In Dec 1918 he registered the birth of his child and gives his occupation as "Private 29th DLI (Rivet heater at Shipyard)"

Chris has referred to the Class 'W' Reserve where it was deemed skilled men were more usefully employed in civilian work rather than the Army. As noted there is no note in the extant records such a move took place.

However, in 1918 there was a proposal to employ military labour in the shipyards but it was abandoned. There was a general shortage of labour in the shipyards and in July 1918 the first Lord of the Admiralty stated in the House of Commons that it was envisaged under the plan to employ prisoners of war and military labour to redress the shortage.  It was decided to abandon this plan and to use civilian labour but if there was a shortage transferred soldiers were to be employed at civilian rates. Whether or not these soldiers moved into the reserve was not stated but considering he had been rated B3 or 'only suitable for sedentary work abroad' I guess if anyone was to be sent to the shipyard he would be a prime candidate.  This article from the Liverpool Daily Post July 3 (courtesy of BNA on FMP) indicates 12,000 men had been released

 

The issue was again debated in Parliament in October 1918

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1918-10-30/debates/35dec135-682d-4415-bb3a-89f42df6d927/ShipyardLabour

It does seem entirely feasible he was retained by the Army but employed in the shipyard without being formally placed on the Reserve.  By December 1918 any threat of invasion had obviously long passed, further research is needed.

 

[Chris_Baker]

I have been through his service record with a fine toothcomb. There is no mention of a transfer to any industrial reserve. His record once back from France was, like before, peppered with unauthorised absences and periods of detention. I think the possibility of him being sent out for work while on the strength of 29th, and from early 1919 4th, DLI is so slim as to be not worthy of further consideration.

He was recorded as a coal hawker (and interestingly only just over 5 feet in height) when attested in October 1916 but at point of discharge was said to be a ship builder. My guess is that he changed the nature of his employment during October 1916 and when he was mobilised in March 1917.,

[fumblina]

Awesome Ken and Chris, thanks.  I hadn't thought of changing jobs prior to that period.  Funny how we see things written down and they become "fact" in ways that may not be what actually what happened.  The medical form has "(Bantams)" written as part of the reason he was rated as having slight defects.  

The transfer from Seaham to Newcastle Depot on 10 April 1919 does say Yes to "permanently retained for A. of Occupation" - assuming A=area?  Wouldn't this kind of imply that they were keeping him on strength because of his occupation?  If he wasn't working as a shipbuilder while with the army it would seem daft to retain him when there was a shortage of shipbuilding civvies.  I can imagine other occupations like carpenter being useful for the army but not that one.

 

Not wanting to muddy the consensus just agreed around depot / reserve and injured soldiers, but I just found this about the 4th Extra Reserve DLI...     It does say as part of their re-training not convalescence though so maybe Depot, 4th and redeployed (or depot, 4th and back to depot in Samuel's case). 

"Though an important part of the North East’s coastal defences, the 4th Battalion’s main role was to train recruits for active service overseas. Men, recovering from ill-health or from wounds received on the Western Front, were also sent to the battalion as part of their re-training."  https://www.durhamatwar.org.uk/story/12535/

[Chris_Baker]

"Army of Occupation". Nothing to do with employment. The British occupying force on the Rhine. But he was never sent there.

And just to go through it again: a man sent home for medical treatment was struck off the strength of his unit overseas and was placed onto the books of the regimental depot while he physically went to hospital. At a point when he was considered fit enough to recommence service, even though as yet still of a low medical category, he was given a short period of convalescent leave and then posted to a reserve unit, such as the 3rd Yorks or 4th DLI. He would serve with that reserve unit until such time he was considered fit enough for a posting to an active service unit.

Edited 5 March by Chris_Baker