Acting Capt William Carroll MC, 1st Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment KIA May 2017

[clk]

4 hours ago, PRC said:

@Ivor Anderson - Great find.

 

+1    

 

Nice one Ivor.

 

Regards

Chris

[AJT]

16 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

The extracts above are from this book

Thanks.

I've put it on my Amazon wishlist

 

[AJT]

On 29/10/2020 at 00:05, PRC said:

Hope that helps,

 

Amazing! Thank you so much!

[AJT]

Just wanted to say thank you to the following, for all their help in tracking down Bill's history:

@alf mcm

@PRC

@Dave66

@David_Underdown

@HarryBrook

@Ivor Anderson

I now have a pretty comprehensive view of his military service, from signing on in 1898 to being KIA in May 1917. And @Ivor Anderson the RIR Military History was a great find! How did you find that?

 

I'm now going to set about trying to find the service record of my Great Uncle Tom - William's older brother who is mentioned in the 1917 Probate Calendar as his Executor - but as he was a Private with a very common name, I might not be so lucky!

 

Thanks again to you all!

[Ivor Anderson]

I have the 1st Battalion RIR History book and just looked up the index.  TBC's name, regiment & service number are in his brother's biography.

 

Private Thomas Boyd Carroll disembarked 17 February 1915 with the 9th Battalion South Lancashire Fusiliers (2998). He was awarded the 1914-15 star as well as the war & victory medals. He was discharged on the 15 April 1918 as 31572, 2nd Garrison Battalion Cheshire Regiment.

The Western Front Association have his pension card: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=1019534&tid=&pid=&queryId=7ea8c29b25ec2be0c2afce33f366bf14&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AHE5431&_phstart=successSource

He was given a silver war badge, so he must have been discharged due to wounds or ill-health. Medal Index card (free) off Ancestry:

Edited 30 October , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[AJT]

On 30/10/2020 at 13:44, Ivor Anderson said:

Private Thomas Boyd Carroll disembarked 17 February 1915 with the 9th Battalion South Lancashire Fusiliers (2998). He was awarded the 1914-15 star as well as the war & victory medals. He was discharged on the 15 April 1918 as 31572, 2nd Garrison Battalion Cheshire Regiment.

The Western Front Association have his pension card: https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=1019534&tid=&pid=&queryId=7ea8c29b25ec2be0c2afce33f366bf14&usePUB=true&_phsrc=AHE5431&_phstart=successSource

He was given a silver war badge, so he must have been discharged due to wounds or ill-health. Medal Index card (free) off Ancestry:

Thanks one again @Ivor Anderson.

Sorry for the delay in replying - the email notification had been dumped in a SPAM folder on the ISP server.

Will pursue further.

I vaguely remember my nan saying Great Uncle Tom was gassed like my grandad and had purple scars on his hands.

[Jimmy Taylor]

This is as much as I have put together

Carroll Capt. William Boyd mc. Born at Liverpool, 30.5.1878, the son of Thomas and Catherine Carroll née Beattie, both born in Dublin. His father was a house painter. Baptised at Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception, Liverpool, 5.6.1878. Siblings born: Jane 23.11.1868, Thomas Boyd 16.3.1871, Lucy 11.2.1875, Charlotte 4.8.1880, twins Joseph and Mary 8.7.1886. The 1881 Census shows the family at 9 Kepler Street, Everton, Lancashire. By 1891 they were at 17 Greenside, Everton. While working as a house painter he was a member of the 5th Volunteer Battalion, Liverpool Regt. Height 5 foot 6½ inches, 128 pounds, chest 34–36 inches, sallow complexion, grey eyes, brown hair, Roman Catholic. Enlisted as 1/5710 in the RIR, 17.11.1898. His mother died 10.8.1899. Served in South Africa with 2nd RIR, 16.12.1899 until 11.11.1902. Medals: Queen’s South Africa Medal, clasps Cape Colony, Orange Free State, and Transvaal. King’s South Africa Medal, clasps 1901 and 1902. He then served in India with 1st RIR. Promotions: Cpl 1.8.1902, L/Sgt 2.2.1904, Sgt 13.1.1906. The 1911 Census shows him, age 30, serving with 1st RIR in Burma. C/Sgt 29.12.1911. His father died in 1913. CSM 1.5.1914, RSM 4.11.1914 – the day he joined the BEF and replaced RSM Gilmore. Laurie: ‘January 18th, 1915 … my Sergeant-Major, Master Cook, and Sergeant-Bugler, all trembling with cold … shut themselves up last night with a charcoal fire, and we found them about four o’clock insensible from the fumes, and had a certain amount of difficulty in bringing them round. Here in the war these people do different things … The Sergeant-Major, instead of drilling the battalion, arrives up with 8 mules and three ammunition carts.’  Mentioned in the Despatches of Field Marshal Sir John French, 4.4.1915, for the engagement at Neuve Chapelle. Dundalk Democrat, 25.12.1915: ‘Another Irish VC … We are able to state that Regimental Sergeant Major W. Carroll, 1st Battalion Royal Irish Rifles, has been recommended for the Victoria Cross for conspicuous bravery. On the 9th of May, just two months after Neuve Chapelle, the Royal Irish Rifles marched out to take up a position in the assembly trenches. On this occasion the 1st Battalion was allotted the leading position, with the Rifle Brigade on the right. It was here that Regimental Sergeant Major Carroll, who had previously distinguished himself at Neuve Chapelle, won further fame. Brigadier-General Lowry-Cole was killed on this day, and Major Clinton Baker (since killed) the commander, was wounded. he had taken a party of 20 men to the right flank to try and stop the enfilading from that flank, and had sent Sergeant Major Carroll with a party of 20 men to do the same on the left flank. Both these parties were wiped out to a man, except Sergeant Major Carroll, who had several bullet holes in his clothing and equipment, but was only slightly wounded in the hand. The Sergeant Major’s party included two men who had got the DCM for cutting the wire entanglements at Neuve Chapelle. For this gallant deed, in which he faced death all the way across to the enfilading forces, Sergeant Major Carroll has been awarded the Military Cross – the medal of St George, 2nd Class. He has since been recommended for the Victoria Cross.’ Awarded the MC, 23.6.1915, with a gratuity of £20. Wounded GSW right thigh, 25.9.1915, and returned to the UK. He was at the Depot, 1 October, and awarded the Russian Medal of St George, 1st Class, the following day. RSM of 3rd RIR, 16 December. The War Diary, 9.1.1916, stated that he rejoined the battalion near Estaires having recovered from wounds received at Bois Grenier (shrapnel wound to right thigh). Whitfeld: ‘June 1916. RSM Carroll is a wonderful man and a splendid RSM, one could not wish for a better one anywhere … November 1916. Carroll has decided to go and to take a commission. He does not move with the times I am afraid and I don’t doubt that my policy displeases him.’ Left the battalion, 21.11.1916, having been promoted a 2/Lt. in the East Yorkshire Regt. While serving as an a/Capt. with the 12th Bn, he was killed in action, 3.5.1917, aged 38. He never married and his eldest brother, 31572 Pte Thomas Boyd Carroll, C Coy, 2nd Garrison Bn, Cheshire Regt, Egyptian Expeditionary Force, and 6 Halford Street, Liverpool, administered the estate of £152.10. Albuera Cemetery, Bailleul-Sire-Berthoult (N), C.15, Pas de Calais.

[museumtom]

[AJT]

Thanks so much @Jimmy Taylor 

So proud of my Great Uncle Bill. Amazed that you found the physical description! Hope you don't mind, but I've a few questions...

Does this mean he was wounded twice in the right thigh, once with a GSW and then with a shrapnel wound, or would it be the same wound described in different ways? Do you know whereabouts in the UK the depot was? I remember my nan talking about her Uncle Tom [think he was still alive in the 1950s, but don't remember anyone saying anything about Bill being hero, although he obviously was.

What I do remember is the front room in my great nan's house near the docks in Seaforth, which like everyone back then they never used, and that there was a framed photo of Bill above the fireplace. Thanks so much for the picture @museumtom, where did you find it if you don't mind me asking?

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, AJT said:

Thanks so much @Jimmy Taylor 

So proud of my Great Uncle Bill. Amazed that you found the physical description! Hope you don't mind, but I've a few questions...

Does this mean he was wounded twice in the right thigh, once with a GSW and then with a shrapnel wound, or would it be the same wound described in different ways? Do you know whereabouts in the UK the depot was? I remember my nan talking about her Uncle Tom [think he was still alive in the 1950s, but don't remember anyone saying anything about Bill being hero, although he obviously was.

What I do remember is the front room in my great nan's house near the docks in Seaforth, which like everyone back then they never used, and that there was a framed photo of Bill above the fireplace. Thanks so much for the picture @museumtom, where did you find it if you don't mind me asking?

The regimental depot and headquarters was in Victoria Barracks, New Lodge, Belfast (originally known simply “the infantry barracks”, as was common in many cities before adding names became popular).

The barracks were completed just before the Irish Rebellionin 1798.  In 1873 a system of recruiting areas based on counties was instituted under the Cardwell Reforms and the barracks became the depotfor the 83rd (County of Dublin) Regiment of Foot and the 86th (Royal County Down) Regiment of Foot.  Following the Childers Reforms, the 83rd and 86th regiments amalgamated to form the Royal Irish Rifles with its depot in the barracks in 1881.  A major extension was built between 1880 and 1881 to accommodate the extra troops.

The main entrance was situated on Henry Place out on to Clifton Street with other entrances being situated on the New Lodge Road and North Queen Street. The barracks were bombed and badly damaged by the Luftwaffe during the Second World War and fell into a complete state of disrepair in the 1950s before being finally demolished in the early 1960s.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[museumtom]

Photograph from 20/12/1915 Evening Herald.

[AJT]

thanks @FROGSMILE

...so after recovering from his wounds, he'd be sent back to barracks before returning to France?

4 minutes ago, museumtom said:

Photograph from 20/12/1915 Evening Herald.

great thank you @museumtom

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, AJT said:

thanks @FROGSMILE

...so after recovering from his wounds, he'd be sent back to barracks before returning to France?

He might not spend much time in the barracks itself, but it was the place where he was administered from (kept track of).  He might be in hospital, in a convalescent home, in a command depot (final stage medical rehabilitation), or on leave, but during all that time he’d be on the reserve battalion’s books at the depot.  They owned him, as it were.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Jimmy Taylor]

1 hour ago, AJT said:

Thanks so much @Jimmy Taylor 

So proud of my Great Uncle Bill. Amazed that you found the physical description! Hope you don't mind, but I've a few questions...

Does this mean he was wounded twice in the right thigh, once with a GSW and then with a shrapnel wound, or would it be the same wound described in different ways? Do you know whereabouts in the UK the depot was? I remember my nan talking about her Uncle Tom [think he was still alive in the 1950s, but don't remember anyone saying anything about Bill being hero, although he obviously was.

What I do remember is the front room in my great nan's house near the docks in Seaforth, which like everyone back then they never used, and that there was a framed photo of Bill above the fireplace. Thanks so much for the picture @museumtom, where did you find it if you don't mind me asking?

Just wounded once as some records would say GSW and others shrapnel, the latter being the case in this instance.

[AJT]

34 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

He might not spend much time in the barracks itself, but it was the place where he was administered from (kept track of).  He might be in hospital, in a convalescent home, in a command depot (final stage medical rehabilitation), or on leave, but during all that time he’d be on the reserve battalion’s books at the depot.  They owned him, as it were.

great, thanks  - so wounded men were on the reserve battalion strength until they were either fit for duty or medically discharged?

one final question if you don't mind? A document I found a few years ago had him enlisting in Belfast. Is this just because that's the battalion HQ. I think he actually enlisted in Liverpool.

1 minute ago, Jimmy Taylor said:

Just wounded once as some records would say GSW and others shrapnel, the latter being the case in this instance.

great thank you  

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, AJT said:

great, thanks  - so wounded men were on the reserve battalion strength until they were either fit for duty or medically discharged?

one final question if you don't mind? A document I found a few years ago had him enlisting in Belfast. Is this just because that's the battalion HQ. I think he actually enlisted in Liverpool.

Q1.  Yes.

Q2.  I’d need to see the documents concerned.  A man usually enlisted with the colours, via ‘Attestation’** at a recruiting station that was often at a barracks, or one of the regional command district headquarters where recruiting was administered.  

**requiring either, a magistrate, or a commissioned officer undertaking recruiting duties.

[AJT]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 I’d need to see the documents concerned.  A man usually enlisted with the colours, via ‘Attestation’** at a recruiting station that was often at a barracks, or one of the regional command district headquarters where recruiting was administered.  

**requiring either, a magistrate, or a commissioned officer undertaking recruiting duties.

Thanks for your help & patience - I'll see if I can find the document concerned. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 11/05/2022 at 17:51, AJT said:

Thanks for your help & patience - I'll see if I can find the document concerned. 

He must have spent some time at the barracks, given that the earlier timeline shows him as the 3rd Reserve Battalion RSM before he rejoined his old battalion in France.  3rd RIR had moved to Dublin in 1914, but had returned to Victoria Barracks by May 1916, where it remained until moving to England (Larkhill, Wilts) in April 1918.

Edited 12 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE