Royal Scots (Fusiliers?) Where was this picture taken??

[iancooper]

Hi. I'm the grandson of Joseph Frederick Wilson who enlisted in the "Dandy Ninth" Royal Scots in 1914 in Manchester. Trained at Stobs Camp and then moved to 10th Royal Scots Fusiliers on 5.8.16. This photo appears to be of the RSF not Dandy Ninth (See below for photo of him in full dress first row right end). 

Can anyone help me as to where this was taken, Scotland presumably. 

I've had a lot of help from Neill Gilhooley who has included my Grandfather in his Indexes. 

As expected his Service Record didn't survive the Nazi bombs.  

Any information on his later posting would be appreciated. 10th (Works) Battalion RSF, formed Ayr June 1916

[Michelle Young]

The Long Long Trail gives this for the 10th RSF.  @FROGSMILEis normally very good at identifying barracks, so he may be blé to assist. 

10th (Works) Battalion
Formed in Ayr, June 1916. Remained in UK throughout the war; moved to Dumbarton. In April 1917 it was converted into the 4th Labour Bn of the Labour Corps.

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, iancooper said:

Hi. I'm the grandson of Joseph Frederick Wilson who enlisted in the "Dandy Ninth" Royal Scots in 1914 in Manchester. Trained at Stobs Camp and then moved to 10th Royal Scots Fusiliers on 5.8.16. This photo appears to be of the RSF not Dandy Ninth (See below for photo of him in full dress first row right end). 

Can anyone help me as to where this was taken, Scotland presumably. 

I've had a lot of help from Neill Gilhooley who has included my Grandfather in his Indexes. 

As expected his Service Record didn't survive the Nazi bombs.  

Any information on his later posting would be appreciated. 10th (Works) Battalion RSF, formed Ayr June 1916

The lowermost photo certainly shows men of the Dandy 9th Royal Scots, which was the Senior regiment of Scotland’s only kilted battalion[s].  The photo was taken early on given the spats, and the battalion’s distinctive brown leather undress sporran is also a key indicator.

The uppermost photo shows a much more mixed group of men including some more mature than usual for first line infantry and given the varied glengarries (there’s even an A&SH or 5th Seaforth centre rear) and insignia, it is almost certainly an early photo of the 10th (Works) Battalion given the information that you’ve provided.  Many of the group appear to be from the 9th (Glasgow Highlanders) HLI, but as mentioned there are various others, including some Royal Scots (plus those wearing khaki ToS).

The 10th (Works) battalion would have been constituted from men of a variety of different units who were below standard medically, or too old for combatant status.  There was of course no NHS then and men with poor teeth, hard of hearing, restricted eyesight, flat feet, and a whole variety of age related ailments, but keen and willing and capable of manual labour, were sent to make up these units.  Initially they would have had the uniform and insignia of their parent units, so I suspect that this photo was taken outside a regular army barracks block rather than a TF drill hall.

However, the rough hewn stone wall behind the large group looks a lot like Maryhill Barracks, the depot of the HLI, so that too seems a possibility given the large numbers from that regiment’s 9th Battalion in the photo.  Note also the dark coloured window frames as opposed to the white at Ayr’s RSF depot.

Edited 27 February by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

One of the officers in the front row is wearing three overseas service stripes.  As these were first worn early in 1918** it must help to date the photo.

Given the 1918 date it must throw into question who the group actually are as none are wearing Labour Corps insignia.  As the majority are HLI and the location appears to be Maryhill Barracks that should be your start point for further investigation.

**The chevrons were introduced under Army Order 4 of 1918, published on the 20th December 1917. 

Edited 27 February by FROGSMILE

[iancooper]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The lowermost photo certainly shows men of the Dandy 9th Royal Scots, which was the Senior regiment of Scotland’s only kilted battalion[s].  The photo was taken early on given the spats, and the battalion’s distinctive brown leather undress sporran is also a key indicator.

Thank you very much for this helpful response. Yes, my grandfather is the one on the front row extreme right with the blue ink spot by his foot. The photo was taken by a studio from Kilmarnock, maybe at the barracks rather than the studio. Very grand photo. 

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 10th (Works) battalion would have been constituted from men of a variety of different units who were below standard medically, or too old for combatant status.  There was of course no NHS then and men with poor teeth, hard of hearing, restricted eyesight, flat feet, and a whole variety of age related ailments, but keen and willing and capable of manual labour, were sent to make up these units.

 That would explain why my grandfather was transferred from the Dandy Ninth. He was 32 when he joined up in Manchester and 34 when transferred to the 10th battalion. 

What work did they actually do? Painting walls, repairing the barracks or were there wider duties? 

[mancpal]

Ian,

The lower of the two photos shows territorials, indicated by a number of Imperial Service tablets which as mentioned above would indicate an early photo.

Simon

[iancooper]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

However, the rough hewn stone wall behind the large group looks a lot like Maryhill Barracks, the depot of the HLI, so that too seems a possibility given the large numbers from that regiment’s 9th Battalion in the photo.  Note also the dark coloured window frames as opposed to the white at Ayr’s RSF depot.

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Given the 1918 date it must throw into question who the group actually are as none are wearing Labour Corps insignia.  As the majority are HLI and the location appears to be Maryhill Barracks that should be your start point for further investigation.

Thanks again for the excellent forensic work!  In his book "The Dandy Ninth" Neill Gilhooly identified two JF Wilsons signed up to the RS 9th. One was posted to the HLI (confirmed in a "burnt" record showing the transfer with service number change. However he casts doubt on it being my JF Wilson as the service numbers are wrong. I only have the Attestation number (2665) for my grandfather and not his 9th RS or later service numbers.    Any suggestions on where to find his Service Number? 

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/02/2024 at 11:34, iancooper said:

 

Thanks again for the excellent forensic work!  In his book "The Dandy Ninth" Neill Gilhooly identified two JF Wilsons signed up to the RS 9th. One was posted to the HLI (confirmed in a "burnt" record showing the transfer with service number change. However he casts doubt on it being my JF Wilson as the service numbers are wrong. I only have the Attestation number (2665) for my grandfather and not his 9th RS or later service numbers.    Any suggestions on where to find his Service Number? 

I’m sorry but that expertise is not within my purview.  Forum members @RussT or @kenf48 might be able to assist, but I cannot promise.  Certainly there’s strong circumstantial evidence that the HLI man might well be your grandfather.

Edited 28 February by FROGSMILE

[Neill Gilhooley]

Hello Ian, good discussion here.

I have in my notes, but cannot recall it clearly, 'The serial number 2665 relates to attestation on ~9-11 November 1914, a good match for Manchester into 2/9 RS. JF Wilson 353350 is a poor match for this however (2664 was renumbered 350651 and 2767 became 350700). (Wilson, J.F. Cpl 353350 9RS transferred 9.5.17 to 7th HLI as 282710 )' Naturally, not every single renumbering will be guaranteed to be in order...

See

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/serial-numbers/ and

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, iancooper said:

Thank you very much for this helpful response. Yes, my grandfather is the one on the front row extreme right with the blue ink spot by his foot. The photo was taken by a studio from Kilmarnock, maybe at the barracks rather than the studio. Very grand photo. 

 

 That would explain why my grandfather was transferred from the Dandy Ninth. He was 32 when he joined up in Manchester and 34 when transferred to the 10th battalion. 

What work did they actually do? Painting walls, repairing the barracks or were there wider duties? 

Men allocated to “Works” units were required for - “making and repairing roads in and around camps, for current repairs to hutments, and other similar duties”.  All were unfit for overseas.

In general all men called up for service were given a medical examination and classified in one of four categories.  Those categorised at the lowest level, 4. - were designated as for Labour in either:

a. Roadmaking, entrenching, works companies, etc.

b. Sedentary work, clerks.

NB.  Information above from publication - No Labour, No Battle by John Starling and Ivor Lee.

 

Edited 27 February by FROGSMILE

[iancooper]

6 minutes ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Hello Ian, good discussion here.

I have in my notes, but cannot recall it clearly, 'The serial number 2665 relates to attestation on ~9-11 November 1914, a good match for Manchester into 2/9 RS. JF Wilson 353350 is a poor match for this however (2664 was renumbered 350651 and 2767 became 350700). (Wilson, J.F. Cpl 353350 9RS transferred 9.5.17 to 7th HLI as 282710 )' Naturally, not every single renumbering will be guaranteed to be in order...

See

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/serial-numbers/ and

https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/

Thanks Neill. I have a service number of  30140  from somewhere in my research but cannot identify the source. 

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Men allocated to “Works” units were required for - “making and repairing roads in and around camps, for current repairs to hutments, and other similar duties”.  All were unfit for overseas.

In general all men called up for service were given a medical examination and classified in one of four categories.  Those categorised at the lowest level, 4. were designated as for Labour in either:

a. Roadmaking, entrenching, works companies, etc.

b. Sedentary work, clerks.

NB.  Information above from publication - No Labour, No Battle by John Starling and Ivor Lee.

 

Thanks that clarifies his service activities. At least most of these men went home after the war. 

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, iancooper said:

Thanks Neill. I have a service number of  30140  from somewhere in my research but cannot identify the source. 

Thanks that clarifies his service activities. At least most of these men went home after the war. 

Yes the vast majority went home, although a few improved their health immensely as a result of an plentiful Army diet and healthy exercise with fresh air, and found themselves regraded and sent to France.  Others were swept up when medical grades were lowered between 1917-1918, as the army increasingly found itself scraping the barrel of available manpower.  This gives just an inkling of how poor health was in Britain’s population at the time.  Apparently a little less than 25% of men of military age (19-40) ever served in uniform.

Edited 28 February by FROGSMILE

[iancooper]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes the vast majority went home, although a few improved their health immensely as a result of an plentiful Army diet and healthy exercise, and found themselves regraded and sent to France.  Others were caught up when medical grades were lowered between 1917-1918, as the army increasingly found itself scraping the barrel of available manpower.  This gives just an inkling of how poor health was in Britain’s population at the time.  Apparently a little less than 25% of men of military age (19-40) ever served in uniform.

Thanks. I'll try to find his movements after being posted to Stobs Camp on 5/8/16. I see that the camp is now a listed Scottish site  https://www.historicenvironment.scot/about-us/news/stobs-camp-designated-as-scheduled-monument/  Might go there sometime in our motorhome. 

My second photo has now been identified as Maryhill Barracks so it's his time there to the end of the war that interests me. 

Edited 27 February by iancooper

[kenf48]

16 minutes ago, iancooper said:

I have a service number of  30140  from somewhere in my research but cannot identify the source. 

For clarification:-

Medal Index Card Joseph Wilson

Medal Roll 11th Royal Scots attached RE Workshops

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, iancooper said:

Thanks. I'll try to find his movements after being posted to Stobs Camp on 5/8/16. I see that the camp is now a listed Scottish site  https://www.historicenvironment.scot/about-us/news/stobs-camp-designated-as-scheduled-monument/  Might go there sometime in our motorhome. 

My second photo has now been identified as Maryhill Barracks so it's his time there to the end of the war that interests me. 

The second photo with so many from 9th HLI is very intriguing.  1/9th was still in France, 2/9th was disbanded in May 1918 having previously been in Ireland as part of the large garrison there, and 3/9th had been broken up in the summer of the previous year.  It suggests that the photo is of the cadre/rump of 2/9th just as it was being disbanded.  The war wasn’t yet over so some of the men would have been posted elsewhere in small drafts, or individually, and some perhaps stayed at the Maryhill depot to fill any vacancies in the establishment there.

It strikes me that your grandfather appears to have stayed with the Territorial Force throughout the war.  Perhaps he did achieve a medical upgrade and became fit for “garrison service at home” (which included Ireland).  If he did transfer to the 2/9th HLI, then although it’s not apparent in the photo, it’s interesting that he yet again joined a kilted unit of a regiment whose regulars were not kilted.  However, he might also be one of the other men wearing a different badge unless you have already spotted him in 9th HLI headdress.  I personally cannot see him.

Edited 27 February by FROGSMILE

[iancooper]

52 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

For clarification:-

Medal Index Card Joseph Wilson

Medal Roll 11th Royal Scots attached RE Workshops

Thanks, clearly not my grandfather. 

[iancooper]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The second photo with so many from 9th HLI is very intriguing.  1/9th was still in France, 2/9th was disbanded in May 1918 having previously been in Ireland as part of the large garrison there, and 3/9th had been broken up in the summer of the previous year.  It suggests that the photo is of the cadre/rump of 2/9th just as it was being disbanded.  The war wasn’t yet over so some of the men would have been posted elsewhere in small drafts, or individually, and some perhaps stayed at the Maryhill depot to fill any vacancies in the establishment there.

It strikes me that your grandfather appears to have stayed with the Territorial Force throughout the war.  Perhaps he did achieve a medical upgrade and became fit for “garrison service at home” (which included Ireland).  If he did transfer to the 2/9th HLI, then although it’s not apparent in the photo, it’s interesting that he yet again joined a kilted unit of a regiment whose regulars were not kilted.  However, he might also be one of the other men wearing a different badge unless you have already spotted him in 9th HLI headdress.  I personally cannot see him.

Very helpful. My grandfather is on the fourth row 2nd in from the left. Apart from his age, I don't think he had any physical issues. He married 3 times and lived to 1969. 

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, iancooper said:

Very helpful. My grandfather is on the fourth row 2nd in from the left. Apart from his age, I don't think he had any physical issues. He married 3 times and lived to 1969. 

Yes I see him now and he’s definitely wearing the dark green glengarry cap and discrete cap badge of the 9th (Glasgow Highlanders) Battalion of the Highland Light Infantry.  It seems likely to me that he served in the 2/9th and so probably served in Ireland during 1917-1918, which suggests his medical grading was improved to garrison service at home.  The other possibility of 3/9th had been merged the year before, and the remnants deployed in a 5th reserve battalion employed at the Bridge of Allan, Forth Garrison, where they still were at the time of the photograph, which thus seems less likely, as it’s some distance away from Maryhill. 

Edited 27 February by FROGSMILE

[iancooper]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It seems likely to me that he served in the 2/9th and so probably served in Ireland during 1917-1918

This is getting more interesting. At the back of my mind is a family story about Irish service. What did this group do in Ireland? A bit more than road mending I hope😃

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, iancooper said:

This is getting more interesting. At the back of my mind is a family story about Irish service. What did this group do in Ireland? A bit more than road mending I hope😃

You should be able to trace their war diary I think because although they weren’t fighting in France they were carrying out internal security duties on the island of Ireland in the period leading up to political settlement.  This would have involved line of communications type duties including lots of vehicle escorts and probably mounting guard at sites of key infrastructure such as communications hubs, railway junctions and bridges, etc.  

Edited 28 February by FROGSMILE

[iancooper]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You should be able to trace their war diary I think because although they weren’t fighting in France they were carrying out internal security duties on the island of Ireland.  This would have involved line of communications type duties including lots of vehicle escorts and probably mounting guard at sites of key infrastructure such as communications hubs, railways and bridges, etc.  

Great information. I'll run a search for their war diary. Thanks again for this information. I've been on a long search for his service record over the last 10 years and you have helped me more in two days than the other 9 years and 363 days! 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, iancooper said:

Great information. I'll run a search for their war diary. Thanks again for this information. I've been on a long search for his service record over the last 10 years and you have helped me more in two days than the other 9 years and 363 days! 

I hope that there is one, your research should shift to seeing what was happening in Ireland 1917 to early 1918 and seeing what mentions there might be of the 2/9th HLI.  That should include newspapers once you know where in Ireland they were based.  

[iancooper]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I hope that there is one, your research should shift to seeing what was happening in Ireland 1917 to early 1918 and seeing what mentions there might be of the 2/9th HLI.  That should include newspapers once you know where in Ireland they were based.  

Mr Google found in The Long Long trail 

2/9th (Glasgow Highland) Battalion
Formed in Glasgow in September 1914 as a second line battalion. Moved to Dunfermline by August 1915.
Was named 24th Bn between November 1915 and January 1916.
Moved in March 1916 to Maldon, going on to the Curragh in January 1917 and on to Dublin in August 1917.
Disbanded in Ireland by the May 1918.

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, iancooper said:

Mr Google found in The Long Long trail 

2/9th (Glasgow Highland) Battalion
Formed in Glasgow in September 1914 as a second line battalion. Moved to Dunfermline by August 1915.
Was named 24th Bn between November 1915 and January 1916.
Moved in March 1916 to Maldon, going on to the Curragh in January 1917 and on to Dublin in August 1917.
Disbanded in Ireland by the May 1918.

When they were disbanded they’d have been broken up into drafts to join other battalions and some individuals would have been sent to the depot at Maryhill, especially probably older men who would’ve been less useful as reinforcements to the active battalions in France.  That seems to me likely how he ended up at Maryhill for the photograph with other men sent back from Ireland, although it’s also possible that he might’ve been with 3/9th at Stirling, it’s impossible to be 100% sure without some documentary evidence, but it is almost certainly one of those two scenarios given his uniform and insignia.

Edited 27 February by FROGSMILE

[iancooper]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

When they were disbanded they’d have been broken up into drafts to join other battalions and some individuals would have been sent to the depot at Maryhill, especially probably older men who would’ve been less useful as reinforcements to the active battalions in France.  That seems to me likely how he ended up at Maryhill for the photograph with other men sent back from Ireland, although it’s also possible that he might’ve been with 3/9th at Stirling, it’s impossible ti be 100% sure without some documentary evidence.

 

Thank you, I'll carry on the search tomorrow.