Identity of Cap Badge - is it the Royal Irish Rifles?

[Matlock1418]

14 hours ago, Ann2725 said:

I cannot see my response to your findings, so apologies if this is a duplication and it won’t be the same as the first reply.
James Alexander Graham is right on. He lived in Newbiggen-by-the-Sea and was the son of Nathaniel and Isabella Graham, both born near Cookstown, County Tyrone. Nathaniel was the brother of my Granda and Thomas James Graham. The Graham brothers went to Northumberland to work in the coal mines. Nathaniel and David stayed and my Granda returned to Ireland in 1911. I have nothing more for Thomas James Graham after WWI. Thank you all so much for identifying the Regiments of these lads. I don’t know how you do it when the image is so indistinct. 
I would say that James Alexander Graham is the lad standing next to the sitting Soldier. He was so young. 

The Leitrim, Castledawson reference relates to my Granda’s farm there. Nathaniel’s family visited often and young James Alexander may have stayed there before enlistment.

This leaves me with the photo sent by James to his brother Nat. This must be Nathaniel and Granda’s youngest brother, Thomas James Graham known as “James” in the uniform of the Royal Irish Rifles and not the younger James Alexander Graham in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. I felt that it didn’t look old enough to be Thomas and now, coupled with the fact we cannot find him in the RIR, I don’t know who else in the family it could possibly be. There isn’t another combination of these two names.

Thank you all so much for all the work you have put in to help me. I am so pleased to have the Regiments confirmed and to know the Service Nos of James Alexander. His family had told me he served some time in India, but I didn’t know the Regiment.

The depth of your knowledge is incredible and invaluable to those inexperienced in military research like myself. I cannot thank you enough.

Your response was a little buried in a quote

For ease and completeness here it is for others to see after my earlier  post ...

On 20/02/2024 at 19:46, Matlock1418 said:

There was a James Alexander GRAHAM, 32186, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers - disability pension - lived at Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland - discharged 12.10.20

???

M

Edit: seems to have had a later Army No. 6972933 = There might still be a service record.  Also another earlier address at Leitrim Castledawson, Co Derry

"……… This is right on. James Alexander Graham, son of Nathaniel Graham lived at Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland. Nathaniel Graham was my Granda’s brother and they were born near Cookstown, County Tyrone, but went to Northumberland to work down the coal mines. Nathaniel remained in Northumberland, while my Granda returned to Ireland in 1911. The reference to Leitrim, near Castledawson, County Londonderry is where my Granda farmed and Nathaniel’s family visited often.
So, one of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers is my 1st cousin 1x removed, James Alexander Graham, born 1900. Going by looks, I would pick him to be the lad standing to the left of the man sitting. Boy oh boy, they were so very young. Thank you so much, all of you.
Therefore, the first picture must be my great-Uncle, Thomas James Graham of the Royal Irish Rifles, sending a photo to his brother, Nathaniel (James Alexander Graham’s father) as I originally thought.  He was always known as James and may well have joined the Army as such. I cannot thank you enough - you are all a fountain of knowledge and how you could make out that blurred insignia is beyond me,"

[Ann2725]

Hi Matlock - I wondered about that George Graham also, but the dob is 14 years out and George would have been in Ireland in 1914. Good spot, but I think probably not, although he could be a cousin I know nothing about. Let’s not go there!

Hi Frogsmile - I still can’t see the QSA ribbon - is it the white patch above the pocket? I am struggling to see George fitting the jacket, but he was a much smaller man in his younger days. My Dad did tell me that his aunties (the two ladies in the photo) made soldier suits for the 3 older boys and sailor suits for the three younger ones. 
 

Here’s another photo, taken a bit later I think. The older boys all have proper hats, which I doubt the aunties made. George does look a lot smaller in this photo, but then his brother-in-law was a bigger man, probably the product (dare I say it) of a more affluent upbringing.

Thank you so much for all the valuable information.

You guys are tenacious.

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, Ann2725 said:

although he could be a cousin I know nothing about. Let’s not go there!

Another rabbit hole for another day perhaps ??

You know where we are.

M

[Ann2725]

Thank you Matlock. I would need to have more information and there is no way of finding it I’m afraid. 

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Ann2725 said:

Hi Matlock - I wondered about that George Graham also, but the dob is 14 years out and George would have been in Ireland in 1914. Good spot, but I think probably not, although he could be a cousin I know nothing about. Let’s not go there!

Hi Frogsmile - I still can’t see the QSA ribbon - is it the white patch above the pocket? I am struggling to see George fitting the jacket, but he was a much smaller man in his younger days. My Dad did tell me that his aunties (the two ladies in the photo) made soldier suits for the 3 older boys and sailor suits for the three younger ones. 
 

Here’s another photo, taken a bit later I think. The older boys all have proper hats, which I doubt the aunties made. George does look a lot smaller in this photo, but then his brother-in-law was a bigger man, probably the product (dare I say it) of a more affluent upbringing.

Thank you so much for all the valuable information.

You guys are tenacious.

Yes the pale patch above his pocket appears to be a medal ribbon.  There isn’t really anything else it could be in that position.

It’s entirely possible that the garment is a ‘soldier jacket’ made by the grandmother.  Many families were still making lots of their own clothes at that time.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[Ann2725]

Thanks Frogsmile. Perhaps the jacket is legit, but the aunties made the shorts.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Ann2725 said:

Thanks Frogsmile. Perhaps the jacket is legit, but the aunties made the shorts.

Children (of both sexes) wearing military and naval uniform became very popular at the time of the Boer War when so-called “jingoism” swept the nation.  Sewing patterns copying the contemporary uniforms were cheap and easily had.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[Ann2725]

For to add the photo of the boys with their hats on - I forgot to attach it previously.

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/02/2024 at 22:52, Ann2725 said:

For to add the photo of the boys with their hats on - I forgot to attach it previously.

Ah now that makes much more sense.  All three boys are wearing proper army style forage caps that clearly would have gone with the khaki jackets made by their grandmother / aunts.

 

 

 

Edited 24 February by FROGSMILE

[Ann2725]

Frogsmile - How fabulous thank you. It was the two aunties that did the sewing; Granny was 73 and the mother was much too busy. They were skilled ladies, as we the ones who made the uniforms in the photos you sent.

So cute, they had the badges and all. I wish I had close up photos of my uncles.

Edited 22 February by Ann2725

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Ann2725 said:

Frogsmile - How fabulous thank you. It was the two aunties that did the sewing; Granny was 73 and the mother was much too busy. They were skilled ladies, as we the ones who made the uniforms in the photos you sent.

So cute, they had the badges and all. I wish I had close up photos of my uncles.

The whole nation was swept up in a way that didn’t occur in WW2, not least because the bombing of the civilian population during WW1 was so much less and so attitudes were subtly different, with it still being seen as acceptable to dress children as soldiers.  This had largely disappeared by WW2.

Edited 22 February by FROGSMILE

[Ann2725]

Frogsmile - I’m sure. A second cousin, 2x removed of my mother, his wife and two young sons were all killed in May 1941 when a bomb was dropped in a row of cottages in Elmsett, Suffolk. A first cousin, 4x removed was also killed in the same incident. Maybe the Germans were aiming for Martlesham Heath Aerodrome, on the other side of Ipswich. This is where my father had been stationed, but I imagine he was in Egypt at this time.

[Allan1892]

15 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Perhaps @Allan1892 or another member can see the SWB list and/or more

Just logged in after an early exit from the Forum last evening. His SWB entry doesn't say anything extra. (image courtesy of Ancestry)

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, Allan1892 said:

Just logged in after an early exit from the Forum last evening. His SWB entry doesn't say anything extra. (image courtesy of Ancestry)

Thank you for looking.

M

[Ann2725]

Hi Matlock1418 and Allan1892

Thank you guys for keeping on the case. It’s strange that we cannot find Thomas James. He was living in Northumberland in 1911, so it is likely he enlisted there - would that make any difference as to how you would search?:

The name “Gormley” was used by the older children, but never by Thomas James - it was just a thought on my part. He was only ever known as “James”, so I wouldn’t mind betting he enlisted as “James”. His baptismal record shows dob as 25 March 1873, but he could have used a later birthdate to appear younger.  
 

If you are keen to keep looking, I would suggest looking for James Graham. Unfortunately, I don’t have the knowledge or research tools that you have. It’s a real mystery that we can’t find him. Thank you so much for all your efforts and the knowledge you willingly share. It is so much appreciated and it’s so important to remember the sacrifices all the men who served made for us. Such bravery each and every one of them.

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Ann2725 said:

I would suggest looking for James Graham.

My main tool is pension records at WFA/Fold3

For Thomas James GRAHAM at Throckley and/or Newburn on Tyne ... Thankfully [for him] and unfortunately [for us] no Thomas James, no Thomas and no James showing there surviving with a disability

M

Edited 22 February by Matlock1418

[Ann2725]

Maybe he went back to Ireland with my Granda and enlisted there, but he could have gone anywhere. I’m sure I checked the 1939 Register, but maybe not the 1921 Census. With such a common name, there is not enough other information to identify him. I think if he had married and had a family, there would be someone else looking for him. Sadly, we may never know, but we can appreciate his War service. Thank you for checking and we’ve done all we can do.

Edited 22 February by Ann2725

[Ann2725]

Hi Guys

Hello again guys - A friend and I have found this on Ancestry - is someone able to find out any more detail about this Thomas James Graham (obviously this is the Fusiliers and not the Rifles, but perhaps he was transferred to the Fusiliers)? My apologies if you have already looked at this man. Many thanks.

Name	Thomas James Graham
Record Type	Military
Residence Place	Newcastle Upon Tyne
Service Number	112390
Corps, Regiment or Unit	Roy Fus., Tyche. Scot., N. G. C.
Title	WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description	Other Ranks Survived
Reference Number	2/Mg/913, Z/R Fus 3364

I guess this is probably a Tyneside Scots Unit, whereas James would have joined an Irish Regiment. My apologies; one step forward, two steps back. 
I cannot find James in England in the 1921 census or the 1939 Register - real man of mystery. I can only think he joined his sister in Pennsylvania, but cannot confirm that either!

Edited 24 February by Ann2725

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Ann2725 said:

Name Thomas James Graham Record Type Military Residence Place Newcastle Upon Tyne Service Number 112390 Corps, Regiment or Unit Roy Fus., Tyche. Scot., N. G. C. Title WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers Description Other Ranks Survived Reference Number 2/Mg/913, Z/R Fus 3364

Yes, I had earlier had a look at him!  His date of birth is recorded on his pension ledger page as 1896

Here is his pension index card that you reference.

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

The listing of units is typically with last unit shown first and earliest shown last! so I would read Machine Gun Corps => Tyneside Scottish [Northumberland Fusiliers 20-23 Bn] => Royal Fusiliers

As for where a man would go, his roots would not necessarily have been reflected in his unit - certainly later in the war a man went where the Army wanted him

Discharged 17.5.19 from the Royal Fusiliers under a Z Reserve reference he was awarded 5/6 pw from 18.5.19 to 2.9.19 [reflecting under the 1918 RW which ended 2.9.19 a 20% disability rate for a pension Class V soldier / Pte]

His pension ledger page with the corresponding 2/MG/913 [Region 2 Northern England / Military surname begining G / 3364 claim number] reference shows GSW Back. The reverse of the page shows his payments continued at that rate [under the 1919 RW - 5/6 pw then being 10%] until it ended 21.5.20. However in 8.2.21 he got a 1-5% Final Gratuity £5 in addition to former award.

M

Edited 24 February by Matlock1418
clarify source of dob

[Ann2725]

Thank you Matlock for all your efforts. The birthdate would preclude him as being the TJG we are looking for. I am beginning to think it isn’t even him in the photo, but it has to be because there is no-one else it could possibly be. I give up!!!