Identity of Cap Badge - is it the Royal Irish Rifles?

[Ann2725]

Photo of Thomas James Graham known as “James” (on the right) and an unidentified younger man, taken in Cookstown, Ireland. Inscription on the back of the photo, “To my brother Nat, from James.” Thomas James Graham was born 25 March 1873 in Ballynagilly near Cookstown, County Tyrone, Ireland. He would have been 40-ish when this photo was taken, although he doesn’t look that age. The only Nathaniel/James combination in our family is Nathaniel and Thomas James Graham, so I feel this must be my great-Uncle. Nathaniel went to England c1881 and Thomas James joined him and two of his other brothers later in Throckley, Newburn, Northumberland where they all worked in the mines.

It is believed he joined the Royal Irish Rifles and I wonder if anyone can identify the cap badge from a not so clear photo. I believe I can see a harp. He could have joined up either in Northumberland or Northern Ireland. In 1911 he was in Throckley living with my Granda and another brother. Nat lived in another house close by. I have been unable to find any record of Thomas James Graham serving in WWI and wonder if anyone could please help me with this also. My father served in the RAF in WWII and his eldest brother served with the NZ Army. My Uncle was captured at the Battle of Crete and spent the rest of the War being shunted around German POW camps and survived a Death March. I am lucky to have his record with the NZ Expeditionary Force and must get my father’s RAF record.

Thomas James Graham, who may have also been known as Thomas James Gormley and my own Granda were the only two family members I know of who served in WWI and I would appreciate any help I can get to find out more about Thomas James Graham’s service. Thank you. 

 

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I’d say that was a fair bet. Cap badge photo ©️ IWM 

 

We cannot help with WW2 queries. Please try ww2talk.com 

[Michelle Young]

I can find a Nathaniel and a Thomas J killed in action, medal card image ©️ Ancestry 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/193174/nathaniel-graham/

[Michelle Young]

Ignore the Thomas J , he’s Thomas John. Apologies. 

[Ann2725]

Thank you Michelle. I have no knowledge of Nathaniel Graham going to War and he died in 1941, not during the War. Thomas James Graham is the mystery though - I know nothing of him after this photo in uniform.

Edited 20 February by Ann2725

[Ann2725]

I am now looking at the possibility that “James” is the younger man in the photograph. He is James Alexander Graham, son of Nathaniel Graham.  I had earlier discounted him as he was born 28 March 1900. However, the photo could have been taken later in the War when he was 17 or 18? He did have an older brother called Nathaniel, who was known as,”Nat”.

How likely would it be for a boy born in Morpeth, Northumberland to join up with the Royal Irish Rifles? Would it be quite natural given that both  parents were Irish from County Tyrone. It seems more feasible to me now, rather than Thomas James being the older of the two.

There are many James Grahams in the British Army in WWI, so it would be impossible to identify him, but I would be interested in the opinion of others as to the likely age of the younger man. 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ann2725 said:

I am now looking at the possibility that “James” is the younger man in the photograph. He is James Alexander Graham, son of Nathaniel Graham.  I had earlier discounted him as he was born 28 March 1900. However, the photo could have been taken later in the War when he was 17 or 18? He did have an older brother called Nathaniel, who was known as,”Nat”.

How likely would it be for a boy born in Morpeth, Northumberland to join up with the Royal Irish Rifles? Would it be quite natural given that both  parents were Irish from County Tyrone. It seems more feasible to me now, rather than Thomas James being the older of the two.

There are many James Grahams in the British Army in WWI, so it would be impossible to identify him, but I would be interested in the opinion of others as to the likely age of the younger man. 

The regiments prewar always had a mixture of origins over and above their core recruitment area and in the case of Irish Regiments included second and third generation Irish from English cities that had attracted migrants for work during the Industrial Revolution.  They also picked up the odd Englishman via transfer, or itinerant labour recruitment.

During the war things became more difficult after 1916 and the Irish base was supplemented with drafts of reinforcements from all parts of Britain sent as and when needed.  Nevertheless measures were taken via unit mergers and other arrangements to ensure that the Irish make up and culture remained the paramount factor.

Interestingly although both are wearing insignia of the Royal Irish Rifles neither man has been provided with the correct black buttons.  This wasn’t that unusual as supplies of these were sometimes erratic. 

Edited 20 February by FROGSMILE

[Ann2725]

Thank you Frogsmile, that’s incredible knowledge you have. Here are two other pictures that were in the family album. I believe they were all taken in Cookstown as someone had written “Cookstown Boys” on the back. Unfortunately, we have no idea who they are. The first appears to have pocket flaps on the bottom of the jacket, which is different to the first picture of the RIR posted above. The cap badge is indistinct, but I wonder if you, or anyone else recognises it. 

[Matlock1418]

8 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

I can find a Nathaniel ...  killed in action, medal card image ©️ Ancestry 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/193174/nathaniel-graham/

A pension index card at WFA/Fold3 shows Nathanial GRAHAM, 7282, R Irish R had parents Maggie and James GRAHAM - who lived at 14 Oakfield Street, Belfast.

M

[Ann2725]

29 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

A pension index card at WFA/Fold3 shows Nathanial GRAHAM, 7282, R Irish R had parents Maggie and James GRAHAM - who lived at 14 Oakfield Street, Belfast.

……… Thank you very much for looking, but both our Nathaniel’s (father and son) did not go to War and lived long lives. However, it does look like it may be the younger man in the first photo could well be James Alexander Graham from Northumberland sending a photo to his slightly older brother, Nat.

 

[Ann2725]

3 minutes ago, Ann2725 said:

Parents of James Alexander Graham were Nathaniel and Isabella and they lived in Northumberland and died c1941. Nathaniel was an older brother of Thomas James. Parents of Thomas James Graham were David and Rebecca and they lived in County Tyrone, Ireland (although both were deceased before the start of the War. It’s amazing that we have these boys in uniform, but cannot find them in the WWI records. Thank you all so much for trying.

 

Edited 20 February by Ann2725

[Matlock1418]

There was a James Alexander GRAHAM, 32186, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers - disability pension - lived at Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland - discharged 12.10.20

???

M

Edit: seems to have had a later Army No. 6972933 = There might still be a service record.  Also another earlier address at Leitrim Castledawson, Co Derry

Edited 20 February by Matlock1418
tweak

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Ann2725 said:

Might that cap badge and curved shoulder title perhaps be Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers ??? - One for the lilkes of @FROGSMILE, @CorporalPunishment or @Michelle Young I suspect

M

Edit: and the collar badges ??

Edited 20 February by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, Ann2725 said:

Thank you Frogsmile, that’s incredible knowledge you have. Here are two other pictures that were in the family album. I believe they were all taken in Cookstown as someone had written “Cookstown Boys” on the back. Unfortunately, we have no idea who they are. The first appears to have pocket flaps on the bottom of the jacket, which is different to the first picture of the RIR posted above. The cap badge is indistinct, but I wonder if you, or anyone else recognises it. 

They are both Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, a regiment with its history centred around Inniskillen/Enniskillen.  It included soldiers from both the primary religious allegiances.  It was a regiment that in a few of its battalion’s favoured wearing collar badges on khaki service dress, even though not authorised by army clothing regulations.  Unlike all the other fusilier regiments it’s brass shoulder title was curved, as can be seen on the seated man.

The Royal Munster Fusiliers wore a cap badge with a similar outline, but different detail and also favoured collar badges.

There is no difference between the jackets in your photos in terms of the lower pocket flaps that were buttoned, but might occasionally be seen unfastened.  In this case in the first photo both men are obscuring the lower pockets with their arms.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Ann2725 said:

I believe they were all taken in Cookstown as someone had written “Cookstown Boys” on the back.

29 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

James Alexander GRAHAM, 32186, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers - disability pension - lived at Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland

29 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

another earlier address at Leitrim Castledawson, Co Derry

Though not Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland ... Cookstown and Castledawson aren't that far apart according to Mr G's mapping tool.

M

Edited 20 February by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Though not Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland ... Cookstown and Castledawson aren't that far apart according to Mr G's mapping tool.

M

Ironically the Northumberland Fusiliers cap badge was also a similar shape to that of the Inniskillings and the Munsters.

Edited 20 February by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Ironically the Northumberland Fusiliers cap badge was also a similar shape to that of the Inniskillings and the Munsters.

I had one of the 'Fusiliers' in mind - but I guess the shoulder title and collar badge rather sealed it for you confirming as Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.

M

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I had one of the 'Fusiliers' in mind - but I guess the shoulder title and collar badge rather sealed it for you confirming as Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.

M

Not really, it could be any of the three cap badges, as all sometimes breached regulations regarding collar badges. However there’s clearly curved shoulder titles and that confirms 100% the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.  They were the only fusilier regiment with that feature.

Edited 20 February by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

Not really, it could be any of the three, as all sometimes breached regulations regarding collar badges.

Ahh.  I wonder if the addresses, perhaps notably the Northumberland one, ring any bells with the OP ??

M

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

Ahh.  I wonder if the addresses, perhaps notably the Northumberland one, ring any bells with the OP ??

M

They’re definitely Inniskillings. 👍

[Michelle Young]

Apologies for not replying sooner, my sister in law came round. I was attempting to compose a reply when the doorbell rang, but I see that m’learned friend has answered. 

[Ann2725]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

They’re definitely Inniskillings. 👍

6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Though not Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland ... Cookstown and Castledawson aren't that far apart according to Mr G's mapping tool.

7 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

There was a James Alexander GRAHAM, 32186, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers - disability pension - lived at Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland - discharged 12.10.20

???

Edit: seems to have had a later Army No. 6972933 = There might still be a service record.  Also another earlier address at Leitrim Castledawson, Co Derry

……… This is right on. James Alexander Graham, son of Nathaniel Graham lived at Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland. Nathaniel Graham was my Granda’s brother and they were born near Cookstown, County Tyrone, but went to Northumberland to work down the coal mines. Nathaniel remained in Northumberland, while my Granda returned to Ireland in 1911. The reference to Leitrim, near Castledawson, County Londonderry is where my Granda farmed and Nathaniel’s family visited often.
So, one of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers is my 1st cousin 1x removed, James Alexander Graham, born 1900. Going by looks, I would pick him to be the lad standing to the left of the man sitting. Boy oh boy, they were so very young. Thank you so much, all of you.
Therefore, the first picture must be my great-Uncle, Thomas James Graham of the Royal Irish Rifles, sending a photo to his brother, Nathaniel (James Alexander Graham’s father) as I originally thought.  He was always known as James and may well have joined the Army as such. I cannot thank you enough - you are all a fountain of knowledge and how you could make out that blurred insignia is beyond me,

 

 

6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Though not Newbiggin-by-the-Sea, Northumberland ... Cookstown and Castledawson aren't that far apart according to Mr G's mapping tool.

 

 

[Ann2725]

3 hours ago, Ann2725 said:

I cannot see my response to your findings, so apologies if this is a duplication and it won’t be the same as the first reply.
James Alexander Graham is right on. He lived in Newbiggen-by-the-Sea and was the son of Nathaniel and Isabella Graham, both born near Cookstown, County Tyrone. Nathaniel was the brother of my Granda and Thomas James Graham. The Graham brothers went to Northumberland to work in the coal mines. Nathaniel and David stayed and my Granda returned to Ireland in 1911. I have nothing more for Thomas James Graham after WWI. Thank you all so much for identifying the Regiments of these lads. I don’t know how you do it when the image is so indistinct. 
I would say that James Alexander Graham is the lad standing next to the sitting Soldier. He was so young. 

The Leitrim, Castledawson reference relates to my Granda’s farm there. Nathaniel’s family visited often and young James Alexander may have stayed there before enlistment.

This leaves me with the photo sent by James to his brother Nat. This must be Nathaniel and Granda’s youngest brother, Thomas James Graham known as “James” in the uniform of the Royal Irish Rifles and not the younger James Alexander Graham in the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. I felt that it didn’t look old enough to be Thomas and now, coupled with the fact we cannot find him in the RIR, I don’t know who else in the family it could possibly be. There isn’t another combination of these two names.

Thank you all so much for all the work you have put in to help me. I am so pleased to have the Regiments confirmed and to know the Service Nos of James Alexander. His family had told me he served some time in India, but I didn’t know the Regiment.

The depth of your knowledge is incredible and invaluable to those inexperienced in military research like myself. I cannot thank you enough.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Ann2725 said:

 

It’s possible that one of your relatives served in both regiments.  It was common for men who were wounded or sick and treated in hospital to be sent to other regiments upon their recovery.  This was because of a pragmatic policy to send reinforcements to units where they were most needed at any particular time.  Unfortunately the place where these movements were recorded was in individual soldier’s ‘service records’ and the vast majority of these were destroyed in storage by WW2 incendiary bombing.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[Ann2725]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s possible that one of your relatives served in both regiments.  It was common for men who were wounded or sick and treated in hospital to be sent to other regiments upon their recovery.  This was because of a pragmatic policy to send reinforcements to units where they were most needed at any particular time. 

I didn’t know that and, as I don’t even know if Thomas James Graham fought in WWI, other than sending a photo to his brother Nat, it may well remain a mystery. He probably enlisted in Northumberland, so I don’t know if that would make a difference. I don’t think the younger man in that photo looks like James Alexander Graham. My Dad’s grandparents had died by 1900 and only his uncle, Nathaniel in England and aunt, Sarah in America (Thomas James ?) remained alive when he was born.He spoke little about his father’s family, so I have no family knowledge to back anything up.