HMS Pathfinder

[horatio2]

 Victory Medal and BWM issued to Surgeon Commander Walter Scott Harcourt SEQUEIRA MB RN.

Seniority as Fleet Surgeon 13 May 1912. Fleet Surgeon in HMS TYNE from 14 July 1914 (November 1914 Navy List).

[seaJane]

On 31/12/2023 at 18:36, KizmeRD said:

Two (civilian) surgeons were serving onboard, Sir Alfred Fripp

Ref: Sir Alfred Fripp, there is an article by him (with link to online access) about serving with the Navy in the bibliography pinned at the top of this sub-forum. Let me know if you can't access it.

sJ

[KizmeRD]

Capt. Martin-Leake described his experience in a letter home, in which he wrote…

On recovery I found myself being well rubbed with rum in a bunk on TB26 and she was getting alongside this yacht (Sheelah*)to deliver me to the tender care of these people who have done every possible thing imaginable for me. I somehow got a cut on the head - getting clear of the ship I expect. This evidently bled and accounts for loss of senses. Here they pumped salt and water into me until I objected. I now have a normal temperature and nearly healed head. I hope in a day or two to hear of a new ship…

* This outfit is run by Lady Beatty, the wife of the Admiral commanding 1st Battle Cruiser Squadron. I like her very much and appreciate her kindness. Sir Alfred Fripp is on board with another surgeon, McNair, and two topline nurses from Park Lane. I am the only patient here. Please write to her Ladyship and thank her, also to Fripp, he is a very good sort.”

PS HMS TYNE was acting as a depot ship berthed in Leith harbour at the time.

MB

[Bcta]

6 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Capt. Martin-Leake described his experience in a letter home, in which he wrote…

On recovery I found myself being well rubbed with rum in a bunk on TB26 and she was getting alongside this yacht (Sheelah*)to deliver me to the tender care of these people who have done every possible thing imaginable for me. I somehow got a cut on the head - getting clear of the ship I expect. This evidently bled and accounts for loss of senses. Here they pumped salt and water into me until I objected. I now have a normal temperature and nearly healed head. I hope in a day or two to hear of a new ship…

* This outfit is run by Lady Beatty, the wife of the Admiral commanding 1st Battle Cruiser Squadron. I like her very much and appreciate her kindness. Sir Alfred Fripp is on board with another surgeon, McNair, and two topline nurses from Park Lane. I am the only patient here. Please write to her Ladyship and thank her, also to Fripp, he is a very good sort.”

PS HMS TYNE was acting as a depot ship berthed in Leith harbour at the time.

MB

Yes I love the Capts letter, you would never know that he had just lost the majority of his crew. From the signatures on the certificate it looks like he wrote it himself and had it signed by the fleet surgeon. I wasn’t sure how much faith to put in his claim about amnesia

8 hours ago, seaJane said:

Ref: Sir Alfred Fripp, there is an article by him (with link to online access) about serving with the Navy in the bibliography pinned at the top of this sub-forum. Let me know if you can't access it.

sJ

 

8 hours ago, horatio2 said:

 Victory Medal and BWM issued to Surgeon Commander Walter Scott Harcourt SEQUEIRA MB RN.

Seniority as Fleet Surgeon 13 May 1912. Fleet Surgeon in HMS TYNE from 14 July 1914 (November 1914 Navy List).

Thanks very much, I would never have worked it out from the signature 

[Bcta]

7 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Capt. Martin-Leake described his experience in a letter home, in which he wrote…

On recovery I found myself being well rubbed with rum in a bunk on TB26 and she was getting alongside this yacht (Sheelah*)to deliver me to the tender care of these people who have done every possible thing imaginable for me. I somehow got a cut on the head - getting clear of the ship I expect. This evidently bled and accounts for loss of senses. Here they pumped salt and water into me until I objected. I now have a normal temperature and nearly healed head. I hope in a day or two to hear of a new ship…

* This outfit is run by Lady Beatty, the wife of the Admiral commanding 1st Battle Cruiser Squadron. I like her very much and appreciate her kindness. Sir Alfred Fripp is on board with another surgeon, McNair, and two topline nurses from Park Lane. I am the only patient here. Please write to her Ladyship and thank her, also to Fripp, he is a very good sort.”

PS HMS TYNE was acting as a depot ship berthed in Leith harbour at the time.

MB

Tynes ship log says “At Queensferry” (is that the same as Leith?) and talks about receipt of casualties from stag and express at 9pm, also mentions 1st BCS coming up river. Probably why Sheelag was in Firth of Forth as well 

[KizmeRD]

South Queensferry (adjacent to the Forth Bridge) is not quite same location as Leith docks (north of Edinburgh) but they are less than 10 miles apart, both on the South side of the Forth.

HMS Tyne was of course acting as depot ship to the 8th destroyer squadron at the time.

MB

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 January by KizmeRD

[The Treasurer]

6 hours ago, Bcta said:

I wasn’t sure how much faith to put in his claim about amnesia

I don't think the last word on the certificate is amnesia - it is submersion or submersing. So:

'Wound of left forehead. Loss of blood

Shock - Contusions and effects of submersion'

Edited 3 January by The Treasurer

[Bcta]

21 hours ago, seaJane said:

Ref: Sir Alfred Fripp, there is an article by him (with link to online access) about serving with the Navy in the bibliography pinned at the top of this sub-forum. Let me know if you can't access it.

sJ

I am still new to this so if you could share the link here that would be great 

[Bcta]

7 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

I don't think the last word on the certificate is amnesia - it is submersion or submersing. So:

'Wound of left forehead. Loss of blood

Shock - Contusions and effects of submersion'

That makes a lot of sense, I will go with submersion. 

[Bcta]

9 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

South Queensferry (adjacent to the Forth Bridge) is not quite same location as Leith docks (north of Edinburgh) but they are less than 10 miles apart, both on the South side of the Forth.

HMS Tyne was of course acting as depot ship to the 8th destroyer squadron at the time.

MB

 

 

 

 

Some of the logs say things like attach to buoy (2or 3 shackles) or attached to another ship, the impression I have of Rosyth in the very early days is that there wasn’t a lot of actual dock space but rather that moorings both above and below the bridge were used to secure the ships with commercial ship movements controlled by the navy. The minesweepers seem to have worked out of granton but I have found precious little information on their activities. 

[seaJane]

3 hours ago, Bcta said:

I am still new to this so if you could share the link here that would be great 

I'm having computer issues on my main system but will post the link as soon as I can.

[KizmeRD]

3 hours ago, Bcta said:

Some of the logs say things like attach to buoy (2or 3 shackles) or attached to another ship, the impression I have of Rosyth in the very early days is that there wasn’t a lot of actual dock space but rather that moorings both above and below the bridge were used to secure the ships with commercial ship movements controlled by the navy. The minesweepers seem to have worked out of granton but I have found precious little information on their activities. 

In 1914 the 8th Destroyer Flotilla (providing outer defence to the Firth of Forth) were based at Queensferry, snd would generally raft up to one another with only the inside ship secured to the quay with mooring lines. The Auxiliary Patrol trawlers & drifters, boom defence vessels and minesweepers were based at Granton. Rosyth Naval base was still in the final stages of construction (i.e not fully open). Port Edgar had yet to become the new shore base for the 8th Destroyer Flotilla, and Leith docks was (still is) the commercial harbour serving Edinburgh.

Larger ships (like the 1st Battle-Cruiser Squadron) would generally moor to a buoy inside the boom defence net, but if there weren’t enough buoys available, then visiting warships would have to anchor in the Firth, possibly paying out 2 ,3 or more shackles of chain (depending on their size, the depth of water and the weather forecast).

The 9th & 16th MS Flotillas were based at Granton and comprised of pre-war paddle-steamers and former fishing trawlers, manned in the main by RNR(T) skippers and ratings. 
 

MB

Edited 3 January by KizmeRD

[seaJane]

4 hours ago, Bcta said:

I am still new to this so if you could share the link here that would be great 

Problems fixed. Thank you to lovely husband!

Fripp AD. 'Experience of a civilian with the Naval Medical Service in war.' In: Steward FJ, French H. Guy’s Hospital reports (war memorial number). Vol. 70 (Vol. 55, 3rd ser). London: J & A Churchill, 1922, pp. 229-236. https://archive.org/details/reportsg70guysuoft/page/228/mode/2up?view=theater

seaJane

[seaJane]

On 02/01/2024 at 16:37, horatio2 said:

 Victory Medal and BWM issued to Surgeon Commander Walter Scott Harcourt SEQUEIRA MB RN.

Seniority as Fleet Surgeon 13 May 1912. Fleet Surgeon in HMS TYNE from 14 July 1914 (November 1914 Navy List).

Seniority as surgeon 13 May 1896; two months later was in the new entry group photograph at Haslar Hospital:

 

[KizmeRD]

After one year of war, the Government decided that employing senior civilian ‘consultants to the navy’ was poor value for money, so Sir Arthur Fripp returned to work in London.

MB

[seaJane]

On 31/12/2023 at 18:36, KizmeRD said:

Fleet Surgeon Harold P. Jones

Harold Paget Jones, seniority as surgeon 14 Nov 1894, photographed at Haslar the same month:

 

[Bcta]

15 hours ago, The Treasurer said:

I don't think the last word on the certificate is amnesia - it is submersion or submersing. So:

'Wound of left forehead. Loss of blood

Shock - Contusions and effects of submersion'

Your translation has me thinking, Would the “effects of submersion” have been seen as a medical condition by the navy? What would the symptoms have been?

[Bcta]

3 hours ago, seaJane said:

Seniority as surgeon 13 May 1896; two months later was in the new entry group photograph at Haslar Hospital:

 

That’s a great picture of him, I wonder if hms Tyne was his ship and if so whether he would have reported to Capt Martin Leake or been part of another command? 

[Bcta]

4 hours ago, seaJane said:

Problems fixed. Thank you to lovely husband!

Fripp AD. 'Experience of a civilian with the Naval Medical Service in war.' In: Steward FJ, French H. Guy’s Hospital reports (war memorial number). Vol. 70 (Vol. 55, 3rd ser). London: J & A Churchill, 1922, pp. 229-236. https://archive.org/details/reportsg70guysuoft/page/228/mode/2up?view=theater

seaJane

Thank you, just finished reading the text, it’s fascinating seeing inside the world of the medical staff and how they worked both at sea and back at base. 

[seaJane]

55 minutes ago, Bcta said:

effects of submersion” have been seen as a medical condition by the navy? What would the symptoms have been?

Probably what I heard called "secondary drowning" by an RNLI man once - not actual drowning, but some water in the lungs - definitely some coughing and difficulty breathing, and in some cases (eg foul water) might lead to infection/pneumonia.

Addition: hypothermia also a possibility, of course!

Edited 4 January by seaJane

[Bcta]

5 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

In 1914 the 8th Destroyer Flotilla (providing outer defence to the Firth of Forth) were based at Queensferry, snd would generally raft up to one another with only the inside ship secured to the quay with mooring lines. The Auxiliary Patrol trawlers & drifters, boom defence vessels and minesweepers were based at Granton. Rosyth Naval base was still in the final stages of construction (i.e not fully open). Port Edgar had yet to become the new shore base for the 8th Destroyer Flotilla, and Leith docks was (still is) the commercial harbour serving Edinburgh.

Larger ships (like the 1st Battle-Cruiser Squadron) would generally moor to a buoy inside the boom defence net, but if there weren’t enough buoys available, then visiting warships would have to anchor in the Firth, possibly paying out 2 ,3 or more shackles of chain (depending on their size, the depth of water and the weather forecast).

The 9th & 16th MS Flotillas were based at Granton and comprised of pre-war paddle-steamers and former fishing trawlers, manned in the main by RNR(T) skippers and ratings. 
 

MB

 

3 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Probably what I heard called "secondary drowning" by an RNLI man once - not actual drowning, but some water in the lungs - definitely some coughing and difficulty breathing, and in some cases (eg foul water) might lead to infection/pneumonia.

Sounds very painful. His description in the letter being rubbed with rum perhaps under plays the injuries 

 

[Bcta]

5 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

In 1914 the 8th Destroyer Flotilla (providing outer defence to the Firth of Forth) were based at Queensferry, snd would generally raft up to one another with only the inside ship secured to the quay with mooring lines. The Auxiliary Patrol trawlers & drifters, boom defence vessels and minesweepers were based at Granton. Rosyth Naval base was still in the final stages of construction (i.e not fully open). Port Edgar had yet to become the new shore base for the 8th Destroyer Flotilla, and Leith docks was (still is) the commercial harbour serving Edinburgh.

Larger ships (like the 1st Battle-Cruiser Squadron) would generally moor to a buoy inside the boom defence net, but if there weren’t enough buoys available, then visiting warships would have to anchor in the Firth, possibly paying out 2 ,3 or more shackles of chain (depending on their size, the depth of water and the weather forecast).

The 9th & 16th MS Flotillas were based at Granton and comprised of pre-war paddle-steamers and former fishing trawlers, manned in the main by RNR(T) skippers and ratings. 
 

MB

Is there more information on the MS flotillas, I am trying to track down those that would have been part of the patrol on the 5th sept 1914. The ships logs refer to minesweepers but not by name 

[KizmeRD]

Why the interest in minesweepers? - they generally started work at first light, ensuring the channel(s) into and out of the Forth remained clear of mines, but (unlike enemy minelayers) minesweepers tended to avoid operating in darkness (for reasons of safety).
Perhaps whatever it is that interests you could have been auxiliary patrol trawlers instead of any of the ships attached to the Forth minesweeping flotillas, or perhaps even a mis-sighting of TB30 & TB36 which were also out on patrol in the vicinity of May Island during the early hours of 5th September.

In any case PATHFINDER was torpedoed (not mined).

MB

[Bcta]

8 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Why the interest in minesweepers? - they generally started work at first light, ensuring the channel(s) into and out of the Forth remained clear of mines, but (unlike enemy minelayers) minesweepers tended to avoid operating in darkness (for reasons of safety).
Perhaps whatever it is that interests you could have been auxiliary patrol trawlers instead of any of the ships attached to the Forth minesweeping flotillas, or perhaps even a mis-sighting of TB30 & TB36 which were also out on patrol in the vicinity of May Island during the early hours of 5th September.

In any case PATHFINDER was torpedoed (not mined).

MB

I am tracking every bit of evidence to build a detailed picture of the day. I know (from the other ships logs stag, express, TB’s etc) that other boats were out there on the 5th but have not managed to track down any records (how many,  logs/records, boat names etc) to understand that part of the picture. So far the suggestion is that parts of the flotilla was at anchor, part “north” of the isle of May, with Pathfinder “south of isle of May, with a number of boats involved in the rescue operation. Each log provides a different part of the picture so I would like to be confident that I haven’t missed an obvious source before I draw a line under that part of the investigation. Does that make sense?

[KizmeRD]

First off, everything needs to be put into proper context with a sound understanding of the geography, and the maritime assets available (including an appreciation of their capabilities and limitations). Just trying to build a picture of what particular ship was where that particular day (early morning) will only get you so far.

Admiral Lowry was responsible for sea area defence from the Cromarty Firth down to the Northumbrian Coast, and all points in between (including the Firth of Forth).

The war hadn’t been going on very long, so strategies, tactics and threat perception were all still evolving. Furthermore, before that fateful day, no warship had ever been sunk by a torpedo fired from a submarine - so the danger wasn’t adequately appreciated.

HMS Pathfinder’s job that night was to patrol the outer areas of the Firth of Forth, providing early warning of any incursion by German ships - who may perhaps have wanted to blast away at the footings of the Forth Railway bridge, shell Rosyth naval base (so as to delay its opening) or maybe even open fire on Edinburgh itself. But the most likely threat Pathfinder was seeking to counter out on its patrol was a night time foray into the Forth by a German minelayer. (Had she discovered one, Pathfinder was sufficiently well equipped to see it off).

The 8th Destroyer Flotilla formed part of a layered defence strategy for the Forth estuary, Pathfinder and flotilla destroyers provided the outer security ring (operating seaward of May Island), westwards of May Island torpedo-boats patrolled, then as you move further into the Forth there’s the coastal artillery and searchlight batteries on Inchcolm etc.and finally you come to one or more boom defence nets strung out between Granton and Port Edgar, with trawler patrols operating to the east of the boom and motorboat patrols to the west.

Not sure myself what difference having two additional destroyers screening Pathfinder would have made to the eventual outcome. With luck, they might have spotted U-21’s periscope and rammed her, but who’s to say? But it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for patrolling ships not to spread out across the entire width of the outer estuary.

In my opinion, what really did for Pathfinder was the audacity Otto Hersing and the element of surprise - that and the fact that Pathfinder was steaming at economical speed in order to preserve her coal bunkers (not wholly unreasonable given the circumstances at the time). Please bear in mind also that anti-submarine weapons and tactics hadn’t yet been developed, and even with Pathfinder proceeding at ten knots, U-21 didn’t have speed advantage to manoeuvre into a firing position, the U-boat would simply have had to rely a bit on chance (picking a likely spot to loiter) and waiting for the hapless Pathfinder to come within range (and not altering course before the torpedo was fired and hit home).

Would escorting destroyers have assisted in saving life subsequent to the sinking? Not sure on that one either (probably not substantially so) as the initial torpedo explosion caused a secondary explosion in the forward magazine, completely wrecking the front part of ship where most off-watch rating were sleeping (and damaging the bridge and wheelhouse too). The extent of structural damage was so catastrophic that Pathfinder sunk rapidly, bow first. Men in the mess decks, and engine room personnel, just wouldn’t have had time to get out on deck and abandon ship and this largely accounts for the high number of fatalities. Had other warships been nearer they might have picked up more survivors from the water sooner, but as it was, rescue craft did arrive on the scene within a reasonable timeframe (first some fishing boats from Eyemouth, joined shortly thereafter by HM Ships Express & Stag).
 

MB

 

Edited 4 January by KizmeRD