HMS Pathfinder

[Bcta]

Hi all 2  quick questions

1) does anyone know the command structure in the Firth of Forth ( 1st - 10th Sept 1914). Did Captain Martin-Leake report to the Admiral of patrols or the Admiral in charge of the base?

2) did the minesweepers working out of the Forth keep ships logs, if so which part of TNA are they held in?

thanks very much 

[DavidOwen]

Welcome to the forum

His papers are located in the Hertfordshire Archives which may be worth a visit. Papers of Francis Martin Leake (1869-1928), Admiral and DSO, of Marshalls, Standon, 1890 - 1926 | The National Archives

Hopefully naval experts will be along to answer your questions.

Good luck with your research.

[The Treasurer]

8 hours ago, Bcta said:

2  quick questions

Welcome to the forum

 

1. The 8th Flotilla that Pathfinder led reported to the Admiral Commanding on the Coast of Scotland (Admiral Robert Swinburne Lowry), based at Rosyth. The coastal flotillas in England reported to the Admiral of Patrols (Ballard).

2. You'll find all ship's logs in ADM 53, but the series is not complete, especially for minor vessels and the information you will get from them is limited. If you let us know what you were hoping to find out from them, there may be better places to look.

[seaJane]

Might be worth searching https://www.naval-history.net/, as more important ships sometimes logged the presence of others.

[Bcta]

thanks for the clarity on Admiral Lowry, is there a reference on on the command worked? 

the part of the puzzle I am trying to resolve at the moment is in Martin Leakes letter to his mother says he sent stag and express on other errands, one possibly is that they were escorting minesweepers. Ideally I would love to be able to name the boats and review their logs. 

[Bcta]

9 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

Welcome to the forum

His papers are located in the Hertfordshire Archives which may be worth a visit. Papers of Francis Martin Leake (1869-1928), Admiral and DSO, of Marshalls, Standon, 1890 - 1926 | The National Archives

Hopefully naval experts will be along to answer your questions.

Good luck with your research.

Thanks, I have asked for a copy of his certificate of injury but not got a response as yet

 

[KizmeRD]

7 hours ago, Bcta said:

thanks for the clarity on Admiral Lowry, is there a reference on on the command worked? 

the part of the puzzle I am trying to resolve at the moment is in Martin Leakes letter to his mother says he sent stag and express on other errands, one possibly is that they were escorting minesweepers. Ideally I would love to be able to name the boats and review their logs. 

HMS STAG and HMS EXPRESS were torpedo-boat destroyers (not minesweepers), attached to the 8th Destroyer Flotilla which at the time was responsible for the outer defence of the Firth of Forth. Francis Martin-Leake was D8 (Captain 8th Destroyer Flotilla), so both ships took their orders directly from him (He ordered them back to Rosyth prior to the sinking, and so HMS PATHFINDER was sailing alone at the time she was torpedoed). Leake received a head injury and having been recovered from the water by rescue ships, he was taken to Queensferry where he received private VIP treatment aboard Beatty’s luxury steam yacht, the hospital ship SHEELAH.

MB

Edited 22 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[The Treasurer]

7 hours ago, Bcta said:

Ideally I would love to be able to name the boats and review their logs. 

If you are after knowing what Stag and Express were up to their logs would tell you. A search of Procat (link below) will identify the references in ADM53 and you can take it from there, but you'd need to visit Kew to review them. Normally there would be an obvious reference for a destroyer flotilla/command, but I'm afraid there isn't in this case. There are some other threads about Pathfinder on the forum (use the forum search) that would be worth reviewing - not an easy one to find records for.

The only other advice I can give is that the Home Fleet signals can provide clues about what else was going on that day - or tell you nothing! September 5th is in ADM137/60.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

[KizmeRD]

Martin-Leake was recovered from the water by TB26.

He described the sinking as follows…

‘We were returning from a sweep out to sea to investigate shipping etc. I had just left the bridge and was in my after cabin standing by the table when the screws began to stop. I started a bolt to see what was up, but before I got away from the table, she gave a veritable stagger and tremble and everything movable came tumbling down. I got up the ladder, pushed the hatch cover up (it had come down), then got the boy (my valet) out, and had a look round. Every sort of thing was in the air — shell room for’d. seemed to still be going up — the torpedo got us in our for’d. magazine and evidently sent this up, thereby killing everyone for’d. Her upper deck was flush with the water for’d. and it was only a question of how long she would float. Both our cutters were smashed up — the whaler was whole so all that could be done was to get this boat out and throw all floatable matter over — a badly hurt man was brought aft and put on the Quarter Deck.

While this was going on she began decidedly to do down by the bows and the 1st Lt gave the order for jumping overboard. He judged this very well. Personally I stayed too long and found myself on the after shelter deck with the ship rapidly assuming an upright position. I decided to stand on the searchlight stand and take my chance. This soon went under and self as well, came up again, ship still there. Had another dive and then got shot right clear — the situation then developed, an oar came along and then a bluejacket — then another — looked for ship, found her still standing on her nose (probably on the bottom). She then fell over and disappeared, leaving a mass of wreckage all round, but I regret a very few men amongst it, for at the time they were all asleep on the mess decks and the full explosion must have caught them, for no survivors came from for’d’.

MB.

[Bcta]

Thanks all, this is really good stuff and thanks for your advice, I will follow it up and come back with any more questions, 

phage a great chrIstmas 

[Bcta]

Meant to check whether there was any more on this question.  thanks for the clarity on Admiral Lowry, is there a reference on on the command worked? 

[KizmeRD]

Not entirely sure what you mean by ‘how the Command worked’, but perhaps I can give you a few pointers regarding what the situation was in 1914…

Admiral Commanding on the Coast of Scotland 

Establishment of this command began in 1913 in anticipation of the opening of the dockyard at Rosyth (which finally happened in 1916). The main purpose of the command was the provision of the required infrastructure to support the fleet in northern waters. In addition to this task, it also provided local defence of the coast from the Moray Firth to the Tyne. Initially the new Command lacked pretty much evertything, and Vice-Admiral Lowry’s job was to get it all up and running. He flew his flag in HMS Columbine (a Sloop at Queensferry), all his staff were appointed to this ship, and it also acted as the accounting base for the Firth of Forth torpedo-boat destroyers (later in 1917 a new onshore base opened for them at Port Edgar).

The 8th Destroyer Flotilla was one of the several naval units assigned to his Command (although somewhat importantly, 8DF were the local defence flotilla responsible for the outer defence of the Firth of Forth). As previously advised, Capt. Francis Martin-Leake (who incidentally was the brother of the double VC winner) was ‘D8’ - so his job was to organise the 13 torpedo-boat destroyers & 11 torpedo-boats in his flotilla to effectively patrol and defend the waters of the Forth from incursion by any German naval forces. He reported to Vice-Admiral Lowry, and as Flotilla Leader Martin-Leake operated from the light cruiser HMS Pathfinder. 8DF also had two attached depot ships to provide maintenance and supply facilities, Aquarius & Tyne).

MB

 

 

[Bcta]

7 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Thank you, are there any records at TNA or elsewhere providing the detail of orders given, patrol routes selected for the day etc. my review of the ships logs seems to suggest a 2 or 3 shift pattern (over 24 hours) of patrols with pathfinder doing the day shift starting at 6am. Would Capt D8 report directly to the Vice Admiral? I am presuming there would have been a staff sorting a lot of the detail. My research feels like a forensic hour by hour over the 4th 5th and 6th Sept to really understand why pathfinder was alone when Hersing spotted her. 

 

 

 

[The Treasurer]

On 23/12/2023 at 00:24, Bcta said:

 

As I already noted above, normally there would be an obvious reference for a destroyer flotilla/command operations, but I'm afraid I can't see one in this case in any of the usual places that I would look. Any specific instructions for that day from admiralty or local command in signals may be revealed in the Home Fleet signals reference I gave. However, there is no reason for Pathfinder not to be on her own - a cruiser, let alone a scout, simply would not normally have an escort at this time.

 

I did a quick word search on the index. There is a file, ADM137/501, enigmatically titled 'Rosyth Secret Memoranda 1914-1916'. There is no more detail, so everything in it may be irrelevant, but it may be worth a look if you are at Kew. Otherwise you are down to browsing the on-line index.

Edited 27 December , 2023 by The Treasurer

[Bcta]

That’s great, I will look next time I am in Kew 

[The Treasurer]

32 minutes ago, Bcta said:

That’s great, I will look next time I am in Kew 

Good luck. Do let us know what you find.

[Bcta]

I think some of the survivors where taken to butlaw hospital, I have looked at TNA but cant find a reference, was it open at the time? Do you know if there are any records of admittance, treatment etc?

[seaJane]

22 minutes ago, Bcta said:

records of admittance, treatment etc?

Many hospitals' Great War records were disposed of en masse in the early 1920s. I think MH105 (or MH205?) may be the TNA reference for a selection of patient and hospital records.

It might possibly (can't say for certain) be worth looking in the Wellcome Library catalogue for anything about the Butlaw hospital.

 

Sorry to be so uncertain, but having retired I'm no longer sitting on my quick reference sources to this kind of material!

Edited 30 December , 2023 by seaJane

[Bcta]

2 hours ago, seaJane said:

Many hospitals' Great War records were disposed of en masse in the early 1920s. I think MH105 (or MH205?) may be the TNA reference for a selection of patient and hospital records.

It might possibly (can't say for certain) be worth looking in the Wellcome Library catalogue for anything about the Butlaw hospital.

 

Sorry to be so uncertain, but having retired I'm no longer sitting on my quick reference sources to this kind of material!

 

[Bcta]

Thank you, I hadn’t realised the wellcome library might have some useful stuff, I will look there and review the tna references as well

 

 

[KizmeRD]

2 hours ago, Bcta said:

I think some of the survivors where taken to butlaw hospital, I have looked at TNA but cant find a reference, was it open at the time? Do you know if there are any records of admittance, treatment etc?

Yes, all apart from Captain Francis Martin-Leake who got VIP treatment aboard the hospital ship Sheelah (Beatty’s steam yacht). The surgeon treating him was Sir Alfred Downing Fripp (surgeon to the King) and the nurses were from his private practice in Portland Place, London W1.

MB

[Bcta]

12 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Yes, all apart from Captain Francis Martin-Leake who got VIP treatment aboard the hospital ship Sheelah (Beatty’s steam yacht). The surgeon treating him was Sir Alfred Downing Fripp (surgeon to the King) and the nurses were from his private practice in Portland Place, London W1.

MB

I have just received his cert of injury from Herts archives, that is signed W. S. H. (Seanessy? surname is not clear) .. Fleet Surgeon. Do you know who this is likely to be? I have asked Herts for its copyright status to see if I can share it on this forum. Is there a ships log for Sheelag?

[KizmeRD]

The medical facilities at Butlaw (Queen Mary And Princess Christian Emergency Naval Hospital, built 1914) were referred to under the name ‘Sick Quarters, Queensferry’ in the Navy List (under ‘Medical Establishments’). Fleet Surgeon Harold P. Jones was in charge - but not sure who ‘Seanessy’ might have been. 
HMHS Sheelah was tied up alongside at Queensferry but didn’t have any formal association with the hospital ashore. Two (civilian) surgeons were serving onboard, Sir Alfred Fripp & Mr Macnairn.
MB

[Bcta]

7 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

The medical facilities at Butlaw (Queen Mary And Princess Christian Emergency Naval Hospital, built 1914) were referred to under the name ‘Sick Quarters, Queensferry’ in the Navy List (under ‘Medical Establishments’). Fleet Surgeon Harold P. Jones was in charge - but not sure who ‘Seanessy’ might have been. 
HMHS Sheelah was tied up alongside at Queensferry but didn’t have any formal association with the hospital ashore. Two (civilian) surgeons were serving onboard, Sir Alfred Fripp & Mr Macnairn.
MB

Thank you, as soon as I hear from Herts Archive I will (hopefully) be able to post the image of the injury certificate it would be great to see what you can make of it 

[Bcta]

Hi this is the certificate!, I have a few questions if anyone can help

1) If anyone can help with the fleet surgeons name W S H ??

2) under the nature of the injury section I think it says “wound of left forehead. Loss of blood. Shock. Contusions and affects of amnesia” is that translation correct? 

3) are these certificates used for other purposes? (Medals awards etc) 

thanks all