Royal Lancaster Regiment - Artillery Badge ( 202131, Pte W. G. Trewern )

[RFT]

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Do please feel free to share a photograph as it adds to the remembrance.

Charlie 

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

What clues does that give as to his health? He might not have wanted to worry his family and may have believed he would pull through at that time

As Rob mentioned earlier in this topic, our scanner decided to call it a day at the weekend but rest assurred a photo will follow.  

The 7th July letter is written in grandfather's normal handwriting and provides no sign of being unwell, on the contrary "proud to hear you are all keeping pretty good towards health as it leaves me in the same."  In a matter of hours, lives would be changed forever.

I can't believe the interest this topic has generated in such a short space of time.  I'm so very grateful to you all.  

Thanks again, Mrs RFT

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, RFT said:

The 7th July letter

The later Field postcard of the 12th July may offer clues but perhaps needs to wait for your scanner to work?

[David Porter]

I did say I'd report back.
However, this transfer was not in my notes so had to be reconstructed. All subsequent regimental numbers are just a guide.
It involved recruits generally joining the RFA in August or September 1916.
No, 1 Reserve Bde. RFA (TF), Ripon, to 75th Training Reserve Bn. on November 27, 1916, number range TR/3/49069 - TR/3/49192.
No. 7 Reserve Bde. RFA (TF), Winchester, to 75th Training Reserve Bn. on November 27, 1916, number range TR/3/49326 - TR/3/49394.
Overseas posting to 8th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt. on January 6, 1917, number range 32998 - 33189.
At 23rd Infantry Base Depot, Etaples, group split in two with an onward posting on January 9, 1917:
To 1/4th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt., surnames M - W, number range 202080 - 202157. (War Diary says 63 men arrived)
To 1/5th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt., surnames A - M, number range 242516 - 242613. (War Diary says 46 men arrived including returning sick and wounded)
The War Diaries do mention later drafts arriving which might include these men.

Edited 28 November , 2023 by David Porter
Battalion not Brigade

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, David Porter said:

I did say I'd report back.
However, this transfer was not in my notes so had to be reconstructed. All subsequent regimental numbers are just a guide.
It involved recruits generally joining the RFA in August or September 1916.
No, 1 Reserve Bde. RFA (TF), Ripon, to 75th Training Reserve Brigade on November 27, 1916, number range TR/3/49069 - TR/3/49192.
No. 7 Reserve Bde. RFA (TF), Winchester, to 75th Training Reserve Brigade on November 27, 1916, number range TR/3/49326 - TR/3/49394.
Overseas posting to 8th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt. on January 6, 1917, number range 32998 - 33189.
At 23rd Infantry Base Depot, Etaples, group split in two with an onward posting on January 9, 1916:
To 1/4th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt., surnames M - W, number range 202080 - 202157. (War Diary says 63 men arrived)
To 1/5th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt., surnames A - M, number range 242516 - 242613. (War Diary says 46 men arrived including returning sick and wounded)
The War Diaries do mention later drafts arriving which might include these men.

Thank you David, fantastically detailed information that gives a very vivid picture of typical movement during the second half of the war.

Is it definitely 75th TR Brigade as opposed to 75th TR Battalion in 17th Reserve Brigade?

Edited 28 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[David Porter]

Thanks Frogsmile, I have corrected my post. It is 75th TR Battalion in 17th Reserve Brigade.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, David Porter said:

Thanks Frogsmile, I have corrected my post. It is 75th TR Battalion in 17th Reserve Brigade.

Thank you David, you’ve done a fantastic job of bringing his movements alive.  My cap’s off to you.

[charlie962]

David, well done 

So, a-m to this bn, m-w to that battalion. All very scientific.

[RFT]

 

42 minutes ago, David Porter said:

I did say I'd report back.
However, this transfer was not in my notes so had to be reconstructed. All subsequent regimental numbers are just a guide.
It involved recruits generally joining the RFA in August or September 1916.
No, 1 Reserve Bde. RFA (TF), Ripon, to 75th Training Reserve Bn. on November 27, 1916, number range TR/3/49069 - TR/3/49192.
No. 7 Reserve Bde. RFA (TF), Winchester, to 75th Training Reserve Bn. on November 27, 1916, number range TR/3/49326 - TR/3/49394.
Overseas posting to 8th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt. on January 6, 1917, number range 32998 - 33189.
At 23rd Infantry Base Depot, Etaples, group split in two with an onward posting on January 9, 1917:
To 1/4th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt., surnames M - W, number range 202080 - 202157. (War Diary says 63 men arrived)
To 1/5th Bn. KO Royal Lancs. Regt., surnames A - M, number range 242516 - 242613. (War Diary says 46 men arrived including returning sick and wounded)
The War Diaries do mention later drafts arriving which might include these men.

Hello again from Pte Trewern's granddaughter.

I was rather overawed with yesterday's responses and to see more detail here today is truly overwhelming for me.  Also, its rather difficult for someone who doesn't understand the workings of the military in combat to fully comrehend the timing of events, so please bear with me.  Some information which may be of interest -

It appears my grandfather was at Base Depot on 9 Jan, 1917, which appears to agree with a letter sent on a Saturday (undated) by WGT to his wife (letter is among a batch for early 1917) - "not to send on any parcels, neither will I be sending any home now dear as we have handed in all our dirty ones [clothes] and are leaving here tonight for France."  

Feb., 2, 1917.  "My address Pte. W. G. Trewern 4th Bn. 1/4th K. O. R. Lancs Reg't, B. E. F., France. .... I shall be looking out for my bit of tobacco."  This appears to be first letter received from France

Feb., 14, 1917. Field Service Postcard (Stamped Field Post Office 17 Feb 17).  Presumably involved in enemy action.

Feb., 18, 1917.  "W. G. Trewern, 4512, 1/4th K. O. R. Lancs. Regt, "A" Comp., B. E. F., France."

Feb., 22, 1917.  "Pte. W. G. Trewern, 4512, 1/4th K. O. R. Lancs Regt, "A" Comp., 3 Platoon, B. E. F., France."

Feb. 27, 1917.  Field Service Postcard (Stamped Field Post Office 28 Feb 17).  Presumably involved in enemy action.

Despite the fact I've read these letters many times over the years, I still find them rather overwhelming.  More snippets will follow in due course.

Thank you for your continued interest.

Mrs RFT

 

[charlie962]

Thank you for sharing this little archive. 

[RFT]

On 27/11/2023 at 16:08, charlie962 said:

The later Field postcard of the 12th July may offer clues but perhaps needs to wait for your scanner to work?

I've looked again at the 12 July 1917 Field Service P C (Stamped Field Post Office 197, 13 Jul 17) addressed to my grandmother.  Card is v good condition and WGT's handwriting remains unchanged.  

Reverse - "I am quite well."  "I have received your letter dated July 6th."  "Letter follows at first opportunity." 

Signature only "W. G. Trewern, 12th July 1917."

Nothing else received by my grandmother, until the arrival of the dreaded telegram. 

Telegram dated 27 Jul 1917.  Handed in at 10.00am.  Received here [St. Just] 12.30pm.

K. O. 15  O. C. 64th Casualty Clearing Station, France telegraphs 26th July dangerously ill 202131 Pte. W G. Trewern 1/4th K. O. R. Lancr Regt gassed regret permission to visit cannot be granted.  Terracoff  Preston.

Mrs RFT

Edited 28 November , 2023 by RFT
Updated text.

[David Porter]

1 hour ago, RFT said:

Feb., 22, 1917.  "Pte. W. G. Trewern, 4512, 1/4th K. O. R. Lancs Regt

The 4512 number here was given to him on arrival with the 1/4th KORL, but the Territorial Force were in the process of renumbering to six figures.
I've ignored that in the steps above so as not to confuse even more. It would be interesting to see when he started using 202131.
The Base Depot referred to would be the Infantry Base Depot at Etaples (which was already in France!).
The previous Saturday would be January 6, 1917 and the day he was posted away from the Training Reserve heading for Boulogne. 

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, RFT said:

I've looked again at the 12 July 1917 Field Service P C (Stamped 13 Jul 17) addressed to my grandmother.  Card is v good condition and WGT's handwriting remains unchanged.  

Reverse - "I am quite well."  "I have received your letter dated July 6th."  "Letter follows at first opportunity." 

Signature only "W. G. Trewern, 12th July 1917."

Do you think that reads as though he doesn't want to worry the family, but ..

Or am I trying too hard to make it fit our earlier narrative?

[RFT]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Do you think that reads as though he doesn't want to worry the family, but ..

Or am I trying too hard to make it fit our earlier narrative?

According to my interpretation of the earlier quoted War Diary extract, the 1st/4th didn't take up position until the 9th, yet the gas attack occurred on the 8th (or am I missing something here)?  Were the 1st/4th in the immediate vicinity of the gas attack on the 8th?

The 12 July 1917 Field Service Post Card was issued by Field Post Office 197 (if that tells us anything) and my earlier post has been updated just in case this number is important.  I've always assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Field Service Cards were issued just before a military action or perhaps they were used to conceal the state of a soldiers health, as you have mentioned.  The thought had certainly crossed not only my mind but also that of my husband.

Thanks again for your interest.

Mrs RFT

Edited 28 November , 2023 by RFT
Updated text.

[RFT]

2 hours ago, David Porter said:

The 4512 number here was given to him on arrival with the 1/4th KORL, but the Territorial Force were in the process of renumbering to six figures.
I've ignored that in the steps above so as not to confuse even more. It would be interesting to see when he started using 202131.
The Base Depot referred to would be the Infantry Base Depot at Etaples (which was already in France!).
The previous Saturday would be January 6, 1917 and the day he was posted away from the Training Reserve heading for Boulogne. 

I've checked all letters and there's no mention at all of 202131, rather it makes its first appearance on the 27 July 1917 telegram. 

Incidentally, my grandfather passed away on the 30 July 1917, and my grandmother, who was desparate to know his place of burial and, despite repeated correspondence from her, wasn't informed until 19 Nov 1917 and this was further confirmed by the War Office, 1 Dec., 1917.   Grave was marked by a "durable wooden cross with an inscription bearing his name, rank, regiment and date of death."  Personal effects were released post-Nov 1917.

Thank you for your continued interest.

Mrs RFT

Edited 28 November , 2023 by RFT
Updated text.

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, RFT said:

According to my interpretation of the earlier quoted War Diary extract, the 1st/4th didn't take up position until the 9th, yet the gas attack occurred on the 8th (or am I missing something here)?  Were the 1st/4th in the immediate vicinity of the gas attack on the 8th?

The 12 July 1917 Field Service Post Card was issued by Field Post Office 197 (if that tells us anything) and my earlier post has been updated just in case this number is important.  I've always assumed (rightly or wrongly) that Field Service Cards were issued just before a military action or perhaps they were used to conceal the state of a soldiers health, as you have mentioned.  The thought had certainly crossed not only my mind but also that of my husband.

Thanks again for your interest.

Mrs RFT

The 1/4th were in the line on the 7th and underwent gas shelling on the morning of the 8th.  They were then relieved in place by another battalion on the 9th and moved to a rear area for a short break.

[RFT]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 1/4th were in the line on the 7th and underwent gas shelling on the morning of the 8th.  They were then relieved in place by another battalion on the 9th and moved to a rear area for a short break.

Thank you ever so much for your clarification. 

I have to accept that this horrendous gas shell attack led to the demise of my grandfather (and no doubt other brave men) and it seems ever more clear to me that the 12 July Field Service Post Card, which bears his signature, served to conceal his deteriorating condition from his wife and family.  Grandfather's letters demonstrate the love he had for his wife, children, sister, family and friends.  Never once did he reveal the horrendous conditions being encountered nor did he record any complaint.  Several of his army pals wrote my grandmother post-July 1917, asking after "dear Will", they having written him and not been favoured with a reply - Clearly a man held in such high esteem.  His letters say so much - I only wish I had known him.

Thank you all for your interest in this topic.  I feel I must sign off now.

Mrs RFT

Edited 29 November , 2023 by RFT

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, RFT said:

Thank you ever so much for your clarification. 

I have to accept that this horrendous gas shell attack led to the demise of my grandfather (and no doubt other brave men) and it seems ever more clear to me that the 12 July Field Service Post Card, which bears his signature, served to conceal his deteriorating condition from his wife and family.  Grandfather's letters demonstrate the love he had for his wife, children, sister, family and friends.  Never once did he reveal the horrendous conditions being encountered nor did he record any complaint.  Several of his army pals wrote my grandmother post-July 1917, asking after "dear Will", they having written him and not been favoured with a reply - Clearly a man held in such high esteem.  His letters say so much - I only wish I had known him.

Thank you all for your interest in this topic.  I feel I must sign off now.

Mrs RFT

From 10th July, to 16th July (1917) successively, the battalion was divided into work parties broken down by companies (A,B,C,D), so it wasn’t really a rest, but hard work.  It’s not impossible that the work parties might have suffered from similar gas shelling, but there’s no mention of that in the war diary, so ostensibly it seems unlikely.  There isn’t really any other explanation that I can see beyond what’s been outlined and what you’ve suggested.

[charlie962]

Has anyone looked at that 64CCS war diary? Link to National Archives provided earlier but I cannot access it via my phone.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Has anyone looked at that 64CCS war diary? Link to National Archives provided earlier but I cannot access it via my phone.

It’s an aspect outside my bailiwick, but I agree that it’s the next line of inquiry to pursue Charlie.

Edited 29 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RFT]

On 27/11/2023 at 15:40, charlie962 said:

What clues does that give as to his health? He might not have wanted to worry his family and may have believed he would pull through at that time? 

Note that the battalion were still sending forward working parties to the frontline at night so your cards are the only chance of confidently narrowing down the date.

The war diary of the 1/4th gives no clues on casualties early in the month.

Perhaps a Brigade level diary has some statistics for it's battalions? 

The 64CCS diary is also important to scrutinise thoroughly. If you need help, shout here.

Good morning,

I've taken a look at the 64CCS for July 1917 and to be perfectly honest found it somewhat difficult to understand.  Is someone able to assist? 

Thank you

Mrs RFT

Edited 30 November , 2023 by RFT
Updated text.

[charlie962]

I think some like @GWF1967 are good on the medical chain?

[RFT]

Thank you charlie962. 

Have sent a message and await response.

Regards

Mrs RFT

[kenf48]

 

9 hours ago, RFT said:

I've taken a look at the 64CCS for July 1917 and to be perfectly honest found it somewhat difficult to understand.  Is someone able to assist? 

If he had lingered from the 7th July he would, in all probability have been transferred to the Base Hospital from 64 CCS unless he was too ill to be moved which seems unlikely given the date he was reported as dangerously ill. There was a constant turnover of casualties in the CCS as the diary shows. In a side heading the war diary lists Admissions and Evacuations to Base, together with deaths and other details of casualties. 5 deaths were recorded on the 31st July and they are all apparently interred at Mendinghem. See CWGC

The War Diary for 164 Brigade is very explicit and has the following other rank casualties of the 1/4 R.Lan,R who were recorded as wounded (Shell gassed), for the month of July 1917.  I have excluded killed and wounded other causes.

7th July One officer  2/Lieut Jones wounded (Shell gassed) / 8 Other Ranks (O.R) wounded (Shell gassed)

8th July 3 Other Ranks (O.R) wounded (Shell gassed)

9th July 1 Other Rank (O.R) wounded (Shell gassed)

17th July 1 Other Rank  wounded (Shell gassed)

19th July 8 Other Ranks (O.R) wounded (Shell gassed)

Although relieved on the 20th on the 21st it was reported 1 Other Ranks (O.R) wounded (Shell gassed)

Finally, on 23rd July 2 Other Ranks (O.R) wounded (Shell gassed)

Small numbers of casualties were seldom recorded.  They would first have gone to a Regimental Aid Post then forwarded to a Field Ambulance, a note in one of the diaries says within twenty four hours.  Although the 1/4 were not affected the 2/1 Wessex Field Ambulance has an interesting entry for the 12th July:-

"Heavy Gas Shelling of Ypres, especially in the neighbourhood of the Canal Bank (Dead ?). The new mustard oil lachymatory shells were chiefly used, and caused a large number of casualties.  Between 6a.m and 10pm on July 13th 18 Officers and 762 other ranks passed through the Field Ambulance.  The most marked symptoms of the gas were photophobia (?) oedema of the eyelids followed by conjunctivitis.  The marked feature was the delayed action of the gas.  Most of the patients felt no effect for several hours after exposure to the gas. In some cases lachymotion was delayed for as much as 18 hours.  Owing to delayed action many cases were admitted on the 14th and 15th making total numbers to nearly 1100 cases through the Field Ambulance."

A Brigade order noted the Box Respirator was effective against mustard gas.  It was however persistent in the soil and water and lay at the bottom of trenches.  It was unusual for it to be fatal but the burns caused by the gas often led to complications. The trenches of the Western Front even in Summer were not a place for good health.

64 CCS, who would have taken the more serious cases, reported nearly 250 admissions on the 14th July.  However for the dates we are interested in there were far fewer admissions.

Generally the war diaries of the Field Ambulances attached to the Division are more concerned with administrative arrangements rather than the treatment of casualties,  It's only when something unusual occurs, as above they are more explicit.  In any event in July 1917 were all occupied with preparations for the upcoming battle of Third Ypres which began on the 31st July.

 

[charlie962]

Ken, all very helpful info. 

Any particular view as to where Trewern fits in?

Charlie

[RFT]

Kenf 48- Thank you ever so much for such a comrehensive reply.

Given my grandfather's Field Service Card was dated the 12 July, leads me to suppose that he could well have been one of those victims wounded on the 17, 19, 21 or indeed the 23 July.  I suppose I will never be able to get closer to the actual date than what is presented here.  The 1100 cases recorded by 2/1 Wessex Field Ambulance entry is truly horrendous.  All this has been an absolute eye opener.  It's so, so hard for me to comprehend.

Thanking you once again.

Kind regards,

Mrs RFT  

Edited 30 November , 2023 by RFT
Correction.