Royal Lancaster Regiment - Artillery Badge ( 202131, Pte W. G. Trewern )

[RFT]

My wife's grandfather, W G Trewern, was serving with the 1/4th Royal Lancaster Regiment until his death (from a gas attack) 30th July 1917.  In the two or three photos we have of him, he wears an artillery cap badge.  Would this badge have sported the word Ubique or the 12 leaves (Territorial)?

Thanks in advance.

Rob

Edited 29 November , 2023 by RFT
Updated topic heading.

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, RFT said:

My wife's grandfather was serving with the 1/4th Royal Lancaster Regiment until his death (from a gas attack) 30th July 1917.  In the two or three photos we have of him, he wears an artillery cap badge.  Would this badge have sported the word Ubiquet or the 20 leaves (Territorial)?

Thanks in advance.

Rob

There seems to be a slight mix up of units?

Can you provide a service number? If it is 4 or 6 digit then quite likely to be a TF man.

ps gunner motto Ubique.

[RFT]

Thanks charlie - Firstly issued with 4512 and then 202131.  By the way, W G Trewern wears a Bandolier.

 

Edited 27 November , 2023 by RFT

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, RFT said:

Thanks charlie - Firstly issued with 4512 and then 202131.  By the way, W G Trewern wears a Bandolier.

 

It’s possible that he might have been combed out from the artillery and into the infantry in the last two years of the war.  This was more common if conscripted under the ‘general service’ terms and conditions of the Military Service Act of January 1916 (and its subsequent amendments).  The intent was to allow for more flexible employment “in the interests of the service” as the catch all clause was phrased.

Edited 27 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

That indeed represents TF numbers. 

I cannot remember whether the TF laurel spray continued for those attesting during the war...

[RFT]

My thanks to Frogsmile and charlie962. 

It appears Ubique will be badge we need to search for.

Best regards

Rob

Edited 27 November , 2023 by RFT
Correction

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

That indeed represents TF numbers. 

I cannot remember whether the TF laurel spray continued for those attesting during the war...

The special design TF badges were no longer provided when the War Office took over all responsibility for supply of insignia from the Territorial Force County Associations in 1917**.

**this was really just a tidying up exercise as the WO was already responsible for the vast majority of the supply requirements.  Ergo the Laurel spray ceased at that point, but had been worn previously.

Edited 27 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RFT]

 That appears to clear up the matter for me.  Thank you.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, RFT said:

 That appears to clear up the matter for me.  Thank you.

There was a lot of tidying up of insignia in 1917 as a result of the significant administrative changes brought about by the Military Service Act of the previous year.

If your forebear initially served with a TF unit of artillery in the first half of the war he would have worn the Laurel spray badge.

[RFT]

According to the "burnt" service record, he attested July 1916 was first appointed to serve with "E" Battery RFA.  Medical History makes reference to 75th T. R. Batt. (deleted) superceded by 4th K. O. R. Lanc'r Regt. 212131.  Until his death (one year after he attested) in July 1917, all details relate to 1st/4th Royal Lancaster Regiment.  His cap badge is certainly that of Royal Artillery.

Edited 27 November , 2023 by RFT
Date corrected.

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, RFT said:

According to the "burnt" service record, he attested July 1916 was first appointed to serve with "E" Battery RFA.  Medical History makes reference to 75th T. R. Batt. (deleted) superceded by 4th K. O. R. Lanc'r Regt. 212131.  Until his death (one year after he attested) in July 1917, all details relate to 1st/4th Royal Lancaster Regiment.  His cap badge is certainly that of Royal Artillery.

It seems to me his initial enlistment was with the Royal Field Artillery (need to check if that battery’s a TF unit or not) and had his photo taken with them, but that he was probably quickly combed out and transferred to the Training Reserve (TR**) and then on completion of infantry training was posted to 1/4th King’s Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) in France.

From the LongLongTrail:

1/4th Battalion King’s Own.
August 1914 : in Ulverston. Part of North Lancs Brigade, West Lancs Division.
April 1915 : Brigade joined 51st (Highland) Division and become 154th Brigade.
Landed at Boulogne in May 1915.
6 January 1916 : transferred to 164th Brigade, 55th (West Lancashire) Division.

**The 12th Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment was formed about May 1915 at Chadderton Camp, Oldham from the depot companies of the 11th Battalion of the same regiment.  This was a local reserve battalion, that is, a reserve battalion for the locally raised (pals) battalion intended to provide trained reinforcements for its parent unit.  In the autumn of 1915 it was at Prees Heath in the 17th Reserve Brigade.  On 1 September 1916, it transferred to the Training Reserve as the 75th Battalion in 17th Reserve Brigade.

Edited 27 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RFT]

First family letter received from France dates to February, 1917!

Several other photos of his pals show similar uniforms where each man wears a bandolier.  Regretfully, unable to post photos owing to defunct scanner!

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, RFT said:

First family letter received from France dates to February, 1917!

Several other photos of his pals show similar uniforms where each man wears a bandolier.  Regretfully, unable to post photos owing to defunct scanner!

Bandoliers were standard for the vast majority of artillerymen, but in the infantry on the Western Front only worn by each battalion’s relatively small Transport Section, who under a junior officer, looked after the units’ wagons, carts, ammunition limbers, draught animals, and field officers chargers.

It would be helpful if you could scan and post the photos here.

Edited 27 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RFT]

I've just noticed he also wears spurs on his boots!

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, RFT said:

I've just noticed he also wears spurs on his boots!

The same applies with them as to the bandoliers above.

Once in France steel helmets were the norm unless on rest in the rear areas.

[Michelle Young]

1 hour ago, RFT said:

My thanks to Frogsmile and charlie962. 

It appears Ubiquet will be badge we need to search for.

Best regards

Rob

It’s Ubique, no T 

[RFT]

4 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

It’s Ubique, no T 

Messages corrected.

[charlie962]

His initial RFA service number was 153222. That appears to be a Short Service/Duration of the war attestation , ie not Territorial. So I think Ubique, not laurel spray.

His initial attestation is signed off by the Major conmanding E Battery, No7 ATS 

 

Charlie

[RFT]

Thank you ever so much for all your responses.  Ubique is the badge I'll be pursuing.

From Mrs RFT

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

His initial RFA service number was 153222. That appears to be a Short Service/Duration of the war attestation , ie not Territorial. So I think Ubique, not laurel spray.

His initial attestation is signed off by the Major conmanding E Battery, No7 ATS 

 

Charlie

That confirms it nicely Charlie 👍

6 minutes ago, RFT said:

Thank you ever so much for all your responses.  Ubique is the badge I'll be pursuing.

From Mrs RFT

Along with the King’s Own, I hope!

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

His initial RFA service number was 153222. That appears to be a Short Service/Duration of the war attestation , ie not Territorial. So I think Ubique, not laurel spray.

His initial attestation is signed off by the Major conmanding E Battery, No7 ATS 

 

Charlie

Looking again it seems like Number 7 Artillery Training School was specifically Territorial Force and located at Winchester.  I’m not sure how his initial regimental number squares with that. 

Edited 27 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Looking again it seems like Number 7 Artillery Training School was specifically Territorial Force and located at Winchester.  I’m not sure how his initial regimental number squares with that. 

@David Porter might be able to enlighten us?

There was a period where TF men were given 'regular' series numbers but this was then corrected. The forms used for near number men don't mention TF.

He could have attested TF originally under Derby Scheme Dec 1915 but not been mobilised until mid1916 when that 5 digit number was issued,  which could itself have confused matters.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

@David Porter might be able to enlighten us?

There was a period where TF men were given 'regular' series numbers but this was then corrected. The forms used for near number men don't mention TF.

He could have attested TF originally under Derby Scheme Dec 1915 but not been mobilised until mid1916 when that 5 digit number was issued,  which could itself have confused matters.

I’m not very au fait with the various tweaks to numbering, but that certainly sounds probable on the face of it and there are several forum luminaries like David who might be able to confirm what you suggest.

Edited 27 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RFT]

53 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Along with the King’s Own, I hope!

We don't possess a photo of my grandfather wearing the King's Own cap badge, but undoubtedly we will pursue same.

I just hope it is the UBIQUE badge (and not the 12 leaves) I should be seeking.

Kind regards

Mrs RFT

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, RFT said:

We don't possess a photo of my grandfather wearing the King's Own cap badge, but undoubtedly we will pursue same.

I just hope it is the UBIQUE badge (and not the 12 leaves) I should be seeking.

Kind regards

Mrs RFT

There is no question or doubt it seems that your forebear not only served in the King’s Own (a very senior line infantry regiment), but that he died fighting with it.  If you had only one badge that is the one that would be the most appropriate in his case, regardless of Laurel leaves on another badge that you might find attractive.  Relative to his overall service his period with the artillery was very short and your photos of him wearing their badge (not having yet seen them posted here) sound like they were very probably taken safely, at home, in Britain. 

 

Edited 27 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE