Pte Albert Wharton Royal Welch Fusiliers? What is this photo?

[clive_hughes]

If he was away from home in 1918 he might well have been listed in the Absent Voters Register that year - under his home address.  Perhaps someone could confirm that it survived for that area and where a copy might be found?

the 4th RWF did produce a post-war History, namely Capt. C.R.Ellis, The 4th (Denbighshire) Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers in the Great War (Wrexham 1926).  I think it ran to two or three editions, the first being a paperback and the later ones hardback.  

There are also Regimental histories for the RWF, some available as modern paperbacks.  These will be more general than the (very detailed) War Diaries, but might be easier for you to gain a picture of what was going on.  

Clive

[danmb1987]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It might be worth laying out an approximate and bare bones chronology based on the thread so far:

1.  Enlists 1896 as a Militiaman in 4th King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry), but purchases his discharge before completing basic training.

2. Re-enlists 1897-98 with same militia unit and presumably completes basic training and goes home.

3.  Enlists as a regular (or transfers to regulars from militia reserve?) with the newly raised 3rd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers in early 1900, one of two new regular battalion’s raised for that regiment**.  Remains on home service and doesn’t deploy to South Africa.

4.  In 1915 re-enlists with the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry) and as a mature man with previous service is sent to the 13th Reserve Battalion, a war-raised service unit used for training reinforcements and home defence.

5.  As a unit probably with surplus men he’s posted as part of a large draft to 3/4th RWF, also a reserve/training unit, in order to bring that battalion up to strength so that it can fulfil its role as a feeder unit for its aligned battalion overseas in France.  Men with labouring experience were sought as suitable pioneers.

6.  Soon after arrival with 3/4th RWF he is sent as part of a draft of battle casualty replacements to an infantry base depot in France and, after administrative processing there, onward to 1/4th (Denbigh Pioneers) Battalion RWF in the field.  Remains with battalion until demobilisation after the Armistice.

**this led to the numeric re sequencing of the regiment’s militia battalions in Feb 1900 and its volunteer battalions in Apr 1908.

Thank you for this, and again for all the information and insight.

A couple of things on what was said in the breakdown.

In point 3 you mention he joined in 1900 but in a previous post it was mentioned his 12years would have been up in 1913? I'm still yet to find any records (apart from the 1901 census) of him between 1901 and 1908 (apart from the marriage cert. In 1908). And if it was 7 in colours and 5 in reserve these dates seem to fit. Obviously this was guess work and theory due to his records been destroyed.  
 

In point 4 its mentioned that he joined KOYLI in 1915 but in another post previous it was suggested he may have got his number 1082 in Sep/Oct 1914.

And in point 6 you say he stayed untill the end of the armistice with the battalion. I'm not sure this is true. He married his second wife on 18 Aug 1918.

Apart from injury how else would he have escaped the nightmare of France? I can't imagine that they simply let people leave to get married. 

[danmb1987]

22 hours ago, clive_hughes said:

If he was away from home in 1918 he might well have been listed in the Absent Voters Register that year - under his home address.  Perhaps someone could confirm that it survived for that area and where a copy might be found?

the 4th RWF did produce a post-war History, namely Capt. C.R.Ellis, The 4th (Denbighshire) Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers in the Great War (Wrexham 1926).  I think it ran to two or three editions, the first being a paperback and the later ones hardback.  

There are also Regimental histories for the RWF, some available as modern paperbacks.  These will be more general than the (very detailed) War Diaries, but might be easier for you to gain a picture of what was going on.  

Clive

How would I find this book? From what I've seen online its possible its with the RWF museum and with the IWM. 
 

Is there any other places I should look? 
 

And yes I do have an address for him in 1918. Its tricky though, hes from Batley/Dewsbury, but in 1918 he marries in Radcliffe, Lancaster but his address is given as Doncaster (where his mothers family are from), I suspected he married over there because his first wife was still alive and but more likely its because that was his second wifes location. I say location because shes actually Scottish and I don't know her movements to why she ended up in Radcliffe. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, danmb1987 said:

Thank you for this, and again for all the information and insight.

A couple of things on what was said in the breakdown.

In point 3 you mention he joined in 1900 but in a previous post it was mentioned his 12years would have been up in 1913? I'm still yet to find any records (apart from the 1901 census) of him between 1901 and 1908 (apart from the marriage cert. In 1908). And if it was 7 in colours and 5 in reserve these dates seem to fit. Obviously this was guess work and theory due to his records been destroyed.  
 

In point 4 its mentioned that he joined KOYLI in 1915 but in another post previous it was suggested he may have got his number 1082 in Sep/Oct 1914.

And in point 6 you say he stayed untill the end of the armistice with the battalion. I'm not sure this is true. He married his second wife on 18 Aug 1918.

Apart from injury how else would he have escaped the nightmare of France? I can't imagine that they simply let people leave to get married. 

Those points you raise are probably correct and I quite possibly misinterpreted some of the dates.

Point 3 the 3rd NF was raised in Feb 1900.  Perhaps he joined them a little later.

Point 4 it’s quite possible that he volunteered and went to KOYLI during 1914 if that’s what the record says.

Point 6 he might have been discharged earlier for some reason such as sickness or the effects of wounds, or alternatively might have been granted leave and got married during it.  If still officially serving he would then have received separation allowance, so there was an incentive.

Edited 20 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[danmb1987]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Those points you raise are probably correct and I quite possibly misinterpreted some of the dates.

Point 3 the 3rd NF was raised in Feb 1900.  Perhaps he joined them a little later.

Point 4 it’s quite possible that he volunteered and went to KOYLI during 1914 if that’s what the record says.

Point 6 he might have been b discharged earlier for some reason such as sickness or the effects of wounds, or alternatively might have been granted leave and got married during it.  If still officially serving he would then have received separation allowance, so there was an incentive.

Ah right thank you again. The story I was told was -  that he told his mate (a fellow solider who died) that if anything happened he'd look after her, I guess marrying her would be the same thing in that period of history. I'll never truly know though. Whenever I asked family members about him - they won't talk. 

[clive_hughes]

Ellis' History of the 4th RWF 1914-18:   I should imagine that specialist military booksellers might have a copy of one or other edition in stock, but the price is another matter...

Depending where you live, there is/was a hardback copy of the above in the Welsh Library section of the University of Bangor's Welsh Library.  Otherwise I'm sure there would be one or more copies held by the Wrexham Library service, the unit being local to them in its former Denbighshire sense, and also a battalion of the local RWF regiment. 

For a more general read, there's C.H.Dudley Ward's Regimental Records of the Royal Welch Fusiliers, Volume 3 1914-1918, France and Flanders.  This covers the operations of all battalions of the RWF in France & Flanders during the war.  It was reprinted as a paperback by the Naval & Military Press Ltd. in 2005 so should be reasonably easy to obtain and a sight cheaper than the original 4th Bn. History.   

It's unlikely that any of the above would name your ancestor, but it would enable you to get a clear picture of what his battalion was doing.

Clive 

 

[danmb1987]

On 18/10/2023 at 16:34, RussT said:

If you look at the Medal Roll posted above, all 3 men on it have surnames beginning with "W".

That seems too much of a coincidence - and sure enough when you examine more pages of the Roll with similar 4/RWF numbers you quickly discover a whole series of men in surname alphabetical order going from at least 10431/202036 (Ashby) to 10650/20223 (Waring) - so a little over 200 men (typical of a Company size). The only way this can happen is when men are transferred at the same time and same place, and typically from the same unit. Bulk transfers of this type often take place almost immediately upon arrival at an Infantry Base Depot (in, say, France) but they can also take place within the UK between Reserve Battalions of different Regiments. Either way, the reason is simply to move men from where there was a surplus to where there was a need.

It is then a simple task to find any Service Record for any man within the given number range in order to help conclusions to be drawn on the movements of your own man for whom a Record has not survived.

A very quick look shows that these men were transferred from the 13th (Reserve) KOYLI to the 3/4th (RWF) on 09/06/1916. Hence the transfer in this case took place in the UK. Given he is a Yorkshire man, his prior Regiment being the KOYLI is now more explicable - and solves the mystery as to why he ended up and fought overseas with the RWF.

His prior service with the KOYLI in this case may or may not have anything to do with his evident previous service discussed elsewhere in this thread.

Regards

Russ

Hello again, I was wondering if you and any others reading could help me again?

I went through the names in the range that was suggested. There are 129 men in that range, only 13 have service records. They are:

202052 William Brook

202059 Samuel Bell

202083 Walter Davis

202086 Edward Deasey

202096 James Firth

202100 Harry Goodall

202114 Frank Hughes

202129 George Wilfred Hughes

202141 George Thomas Kaye

202144 James Lavin

202159 Tom Marsden

202170 Arthur Pinches

202196 Charles Richard Shuttleworth

Of those 13, 3 are of interest to me. 202096 Firth 202141 Kaye and 202144 Lavin.

All 3 of them mention the Command Depot in Heaton Park, Manchester. This is the area in which Alberts' second wifes family is from. More specifically this is where Alberts second wife Isabella lived with her first husband Henry Robert Calloway. Henry died in 1916 he was part of the 17th (18th) Manchester Regiment (according to his records, which have a lot of personal information in - unfortunately a lot of its burnt). On the 1921 census Albert is living with Isabella, one of his daughters from his first marriage and Isabellas' son Robert who gives his place of birth as Heaton Park. 

Firths record in particular has dates around the time when Albert married Isabella in Radcliffe about 4miles from Heaton Park on 10th Aug 1918. Because I don't fully understand the records, all the information in them and abbreviations etc can someone tell me what some of it means?

Theres a date given about "7 days leave under..." which is think is 8th Aug 1918 which would have been 2days before Alberts wedding. Is this when leave was given? I find the records confusing not everything seems to always be in date order. 

Can someone check what I'm saying is correct, and if so would Albert and Firth have moved together for most of their time in the RWF?

The image is from Find my Past.

 

[PRC]

What I’m seeing looks like this:-

8.4.18 Admited 5 London(?) Field Ambulance – Wounded: Gas.
9.4.18 Transferred and admitted St. John’s Ambulance Hospital, Camiers – “Gassed Shell”.
12.4.18 To England via Hospital Ship.
13.4.18 Transferred onto the strength of the T.F. Depot of his Regiment for pay, disciplinary and admin purposes while receiving inpatient treatment in the UK.
24.5.18. Posted to Western Command Depot, Heaton Park, Manchester for convalescence and subsequently initial refresher physical training. He would also be undergoing assessment to see if he was:-
fit to move on to a Home Service unit, potentially in preparation for a return to overseas service;
if not, if a Labour Corps unit was appropriate;
or if he was unlikely to become fit enough again for war service and so should be discharged.
25.5.18 Occupational Index Cards dispatched. Both admin and looking to see what sort of work he might be suitable for.
30.8.18. His convalescent over, he was granted 7 days leave prior to reporting to a Reserve Unit, the 3^rd Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers.
1.11.18 Medical Board now classifies him Medical Grade B1 – so fit for overseas but not frontline service.
3.12.18. Transferred to Army Reserve Class P to take work with Wathmain Colliery, Rotherham. Should his work not prove to be satisfactory or if the Army needed men of his medical grade, then he could be recalled to full time service in the ranks immediately.

Now to let others critique

Cheers,
Peter

[Ron da Valli]

I have done some research on the 4th RWF. I have come across many KOYLIs who were transferred to them. It looks like a block transfer. I will list a few. The first is the only one so far that has an enlistment date:

Herbert Hudson,   KOYLI  20239/  4th RWF 10521    Enlisted 10/12/15

Arthur Firth    KOYLI  1902/  4th RWF  202105

Arthur Forrest       KOYLI  2304/ 4th RWF 202106

Charles Hall        KOYLI  2143/  4th RWF  202128

Levi Hall           KOYLI 2372/ 4th RWF  202600

The main enlistment towns seem to be: Pontefract, Doncaster, Harrogate & Ripon. 

     

[danmb1987]

Doncaster would be possible as there was family of Alberts there. I think before on this thread it was suggested he joined the KOYLI in Sep/Oct 1914 due to his number 1082 in Dewsbury.

Because Alberts records don't survive I'm trying to trace his movements using other means like other service records, and the war diary. I've just got hold of a book about the KOYLI to try and see what he might have done before been transferred to the RWF. 
 

Because theres only 13 service records in the range of men I really don't see how I can confidently say what his movements were. Also my lack of knowledge in this area is unhelpful. For example I assumed once you got sent to France you only left through, death, injury, or the end of the war. So it puzzled me that he got married before November 1918 and I'm not aware that he was seriously injured. I was told by his daughter that he had shrapnel in his upper back or shoulder. 
 

I must admit when seeing what was actually in the records of these men and then knowing the one is need isn't there has lightly angered me at times. But its just the way it goes. 

[danmb1987]

On 18/10/2023 at 14:43, Matlock1418 said:

Albert WHARTON,

A pension index card at WFA/Fold3 shows he claimed for a disability pension under a Z/RWF pension reference.

He cites service as:

• Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 202231 [latest - definitely]
• King's Own Yorkshire, Light Infantry 1082
• Northumberland Fusiliers, 7787 [likely his earliest - given the way the MoP typically listed service]

There is also a pension ledger page:

Condition unspecified but he gave the address of 11 Foundry St, Radcliffe nr. Manchester

Quite a lot of correspondence/MoP entries through to 1926, including EATS [Employment Appeals Tribunal Service] entries - then record signed as OK in 1930

M

If anyone could help here as I'm also struggling with this pension record.

I've got it on fold3 which I can only find through ancestry hints. If I search for Albert actually on the website it only comes back with his medal records.

The information given above about the address and appeals I just cannot seem to find. All it gives me is 2 pictures showing his regiment numbers. And the second picture is practically blank with a date stamped on it.

On the first picture below the regiments I know about is 2/RWF/10528 which I believe is his number before the regiment was renumbered. But what would 4/MW/7223 be for?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, danmb1987 said:

Doncaster would be possible as there was family of Alberts there. I think before on this thread it was suggested he joined the KOYLI in Sep/Oct 1914 due to his number 1082 in Dewsbury.

Because Alberts records don't survive I'm trying to trace his movements using other means like other service records, and the war diary. I've just got hold of a book about the KOYLI to try and see what he might have done before been transferred to the RWF. 
 

Because theres only 13 service records in the range of men I really don't see how I can confidently say what his movements were. Also my lack of knowledge in this area is unhelpful. For example I assumed once you got sent to France you only left through, death, injury, or the end of the war. So it puzzled me that he got married before November 1918 and I'm not aware that he was seriously injured. I was told by his daughter that he had shrapnel in his upper back or shoulder. 
 

I must admit when seeing what was actually in the records of these men and then knowing the one is need isn't there has lightly angered me at times. But its just the way it goes. 

Regarding leave to get married, from the autumn of 1916, troops were permitted three annual leave periods, and in 1917 and 1918, the length of the leave periods was increased.  There are some good images of soldiers travelling on leave here: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4791800/amp/Photos-reveal-British-troops-enjoying-break-WWI.html

For further detail, including soldiers accounts, see: https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/voices-of-the-first-world-war-home-on-leave

Edited 11 March by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

On 11/03/2024 at 09:23, danmb1987 said:

The information given above about the address and appeals I just cannot seem to find.

There you go ... the pension ledger page [the reverse is not annotated]

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

On 11/03/2024 at 09:23, danmb1987 said:

On the first picture below the regiments I know about is 2/RWF/10528 which I believe is his number before the regiment was renumbered. But what would 4/MW/7223 be for?

Z/RWF/10528 = A Z Reserve RWF pension claim reference on demob - not a Regimental number

4/MW/7223 = a MoP pension claim reference number [see also the pension ledger page above] - not a Regimental number ... 4 = Pension region 4 / NE England, MW = Military claim by a man with surname starting W

M

Edit: Region 4 for was actually described as "Yorkshire Region"

Edited 12 March by Matlock1418
Edit

[Matlock1418]

11 hours ago, danmb1987 said:

And the second picture is practically blank with a date stamped on it.

It's the reverse of the image you call the first picture

M

[danmb1987]

Thank you for showing me that. What would he have been claiming for? Would it have been something they would all have been entitled to, or would it be because something had happened to him? If so, would that indicate if he was injured for example? 

[Matlock1418]

25 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

What would he have been claiming for? Would it have been something they would all have been entitled to, or would it be because something had happened to him? If so, would that indicate if he was injured for example? 

He would have been claiming for a personal disability(ies) [wound/injury/illness] sustained/attributed to or aggravated by military duties still present at the time of discharge/claim - temporary or potentially permanent disability(ies).  Sadly we cannot see what he claimed for from the pension records.

M

Edited 12 March by Matlock1418