Pte Albert Wharton Royal Welch Fusiliers? What is this photo?

[danmb1987]

14 minutes ago, RussT said:

If you look at the Medal Roll posted above, all 3 men on it have surnames beginning with "W".

That seems too much of a coincidence - and sure enough when you examine more pages of the Roll with similar 4/RWF numbers you quickly discover a whole series of men in surname alphabetical order going from at least 10431/202036 (Ashby) to 10650/20223 (Waring) - so a little over 200 men (typical of a Company size). The only way this can happen is when men are transferred at the same time and same place, and typically from the same unit. Bulk transfers of this type often take place almost immediately upon arrival at an Infantry Base Depot (in, say, France) but they can also take place within the UK between Reserve Battalions of different Regiments. Either way, the reason is simply to move men from where there was a surplus to where there was a need.

It is then a simple task to find any Service Record for any man within the given number range in order to help conclusions to be drawn on the movements of your own man for whom a Record has not survived.

A very quick look shows that these men were transferred from the 13th (Reserve) KOYLI to the 3/4th (RWF) on 09/06/1916. Hence the transfer in this case took place in the UK. Given he is a Yorkshire man, his prior Regiment being the KOYLI is now more explicable - and solves the mystery as to why he ended up and fought overseas with the RWF.

His prior service with the KOYLI in this case may or may not have anything to do with his evident previous service discussed elsewhere in this thread.

Regards

Russ

Thank you for this. Those dates fit with conscription (if I'm correct?) and clears up something in his personal life for me aswell if he was conscripted.

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

And before 1901 in those 1897 what was happening there? Like someone said before that some people just dropped in and out?

For the earliest enlistments in 1897 and 1898 he was with Militia battalions, as mentioned, and the engagement generally began with 6-months full time training assuming that he did not absent himself without leave (run away) as at least some often did.  It looks as if he purchased his discharge before completion (?), but then changed his mind and reenlisted the following year.

After completion of the basic training a Militia man usually returned to civilian life with an obligation to return once a year for a 5-week summer training camp, in return for which he received a cash sum.  This was especially good for men not in regular employment such as labourers within what we’d now describe as zero hours contracts, or a gig economy.  The rest of his time was as a civilian living however he could.

 It seems like the Northumberland Fusiliers photo was the only one that he possessed (or at least kept) of himself in uniform.

Edited 18 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[danmb1987]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

For the earliest enlistments in 1897 and 1898 he was with Militia battalions, as mentioned, and the engagement generally began with 6-months full time training assuming that he did not absent himself without leave.  It looks as if he purchased his discharge before completion (?) but then changed his mind and reenlisted the following year.  After completion of the basic training a Militia man usually returned to civilian life with an obligation to return once a year for a 5-week training camp, in return for which he received a cash sum.  This was especially good for men not in regular employment such as labourers with what we’d now describe as zero hours contracts or a gig economy.  The rest of his time was as a civilian living however he could.

Is this also what would have been happening in 1901 aswell? His first marriage was 25 Jul 1908. 
 

Also am I correct in saying that those papers from 1896-7 are Kings Own Yorkshire, The 1901 census shows its Northumberland Fusiliers, and 1916 it will be The Royal Welch Fusiliers? 

Or are RWF and Northumberland Fusiliers part of the Kings Own Yorkshire Infantry. I'm not clear on how military units and battalions are structured.  

Edited 18 October , 2023 by danmb1987

[danmb1987]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

For the earliest enlistments in 1897 and 1898 he was with Militia battalions, as mentioned, and the engagement generally began with 6-months full time training assuming that he did not absent himself without leave (run away) as at least some often did.  It looks as if he purchased his discharge before completion (?), but then changed his mind and reenlisted the following year.

After completion of the basic training a Militia man usually returned to civilian life with an obligation to return once a year for a 5-week summer training camp, in return for which he received a cash sum.  This was especially good for men not in regular employment such as labourers within what we’d now describe as zero hours contracts, or a gig economy.  The rest of his time was as a civilian living however he could.

 It seems like the Northumberland Fusiliers photo was the only one that he possessed (or at least kept) of himself in uniform.

That poster is brilliant!

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, danmb1987 said:

…Also am I correct in saying that those papers from 1896-7 are Kings Own Yorkshire, The 1901 census shows its Northumberland Fusiliers, and 1916 it will be The Royal Welch Fusiliers? 

Or are RWF and Northumberland Fusiliers part of the Kings Own Yorkshire Infantry. I'm not clear on how military units and battalions are structured.  

They are entirely different regiments within the infantry of the line in the then British Army.  From 1881 to 1908, most of the regiments had two regular army (full time) battalions as 1st and 2nd, and one or two militia battalions, i.e. 3rd and 4th.  Then in addition they had several Volunteer Battalions (VB - a different type of auxiliary citizen soldiers to the militia) and these were numbered consecutively in their own series, so, e.g. there were two 1st Battalions, a regular and a VB.

Just a few of the regiments had four regular battalions (1st to 4th), which meant that their militia were numbered consecutively 5th, 6th, etc. and as before, their VB separately, the total depending upon how many units there were.  Some County’s were larger and so had more battalions than others.

During the course of WW1 additional war-raised battalions were created and these were known as ‘service battalions’.  They were comprised of citizen soldiers and, unlike the regular and Territorial units, existed for the duration of the war only, with the full expectation that they would be disbanded as soon as peace came.  They took their place within each regiment by numeric designation of battalion following on from regulars and Territorials, e.g. 10th, 11th Battalions, etc.

Whatever the census showed was his regiment at the exact time that the census was counted and so shows his movement (reenlistments).

Edited 19 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

48 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

Thank you for this. Those dates fit with conscription (if I'm correct?) and clears up something in his personal life for me as well if he was conscripted.

The only date I quoted (09/06/1916) was the date of his transfer from the KOYLI to the RWF. You will need to find out (or at least estimate) when he joined the KOYLI before this transfer. For what it is worth, I would venture an opinion that he was with the unit of the KOYLI from whom he was transferred before conscription.

You have a KOYLI number - 1082 - which I would suggest was his KOYLI number before this transfer to the RWF. The trick now is to attempt to align that prior KOYLI number to an enlistment date (and/or the date the number was allotted) - that is easier said than done for reasons beyond the remit of this thread (for now).

Regards

Russ

[PRC]

1 hour ago, danmb1987 said:

Is this also what would have been happening in 1901 aswell? His first marriage was 25 Jul 1908. 

As his records haven't survived it's impossible to tell unless we find another source. But (and this is pure speculation on my part), in my experience it was not uncommon for privates to marry shortly after they have been discharged to the Army Reserve. While accomodation for wives and children was available it was a bit of a lottery for those at the lowest rank and certainly not guaranteed if the husbands unit was posted overseas that they'd be able to go with him.

In one of the scenario's I laid out above, the one in which he signed up for 12 years in January 1901 with 7 of them in the colours, he would have been back in civvy street in January 1908. As a reservist he had half-pay as long as he met certain conditions, (and full pay when he attended refersher training), plus access to free healthcare. From a purely economic viewpoint that financially could have made him look attractive by comparison to his workforce peers. So a marriage six months later could relate to his discharge to the reserves or could be a complete co-incidence.

One possibility is to check the electoral register, taking addresses from the first marriage certificate. Given his age, if he was the male head of a household paying rent or owning a property that he would have been eligible to vote. Of course he may not have been bothered, although voting rights were a potential source of income or at least job security if you voted the way your employer told you to. If he turns up before 1908 then you know he wasn't serving - nothing can be implied from his absence.

Cheers,
Peter

[RussT]

As regards to his later service, I've only done some cursory work - but I have concluded he joined the 12th Bn KOYLI (Miners/Pioneers). This was formed in Leeds on 5 September 1914 by the West Yorkshire Coal Owners Association. It was a Pals-type Battalion that used its own numbering scheme. The man with number 1079 joined at Dewsbury, which I understand is where Albert was born (resided?).

I believe Albert's KOYLI number would originally have had a 12/ prefix - hence 12/1082 and the number itself would have been allotted in late September /early October 1914. These types of Battalions often raised more men than necessary for "normal" establishment and designated the surplus Depot Companies. He was either in that Company or was moved to it. Either, way the Depot Company of the 12/Bn KOYLI formed the nucleus of the 13th (Reserve) Battalion KOYLI from whom he was eventually transferred to the RWF.

Russ

 

[danmb1987]

48 minutes ago, PRC said:

As his records haven't survived it's impossible to tell unless we find another source. But (and this is pure speculation on my part), in my experience it was not uncommon for privates to marry shortly after they have been discharged to the Army Reserve. While accomodation for wives and children was available it was a bit of a lottery for those at the lowest rank and certainly not guaranteed if the husbands unit was posted overseas that they'd be able to go with him.

In one of the scenario's I laid out above, the one in which he signed up for 12 years in January 1901 with 7 of them in the colours, he would have been back in civvy street in January 1908. As a reservist he had half-pay as long as he met certain conditions, (and full pay when he attended refersher training), plus access to free healthcare. From a purely economic viewpoint that financially could have made him look attractive by comparison to his workforce peers. So a marriage six months later could relate to his discharge to the reserves or could be a complete co-incidence.

One possibility is to check the electoral register, taking addresses from the first marriage certificate. Given his age, if he was the male head of a household paying rent or owning a property that he would have been eligible to vote. Of course he may not have been bothered, although voting rights were a potential source of income or at least job security if you voted the way your employer told you to. If he turns up before 1908 then you know he wasn't serving - nothing can be implied from his absence.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you again for this. I'll check records again. I've never seen any electoral records for him, I've seen some prison records but they're all post 1908. 

[danmb1987]

45 minutes ago, RussT said:

As regards to his later service, I've only done some cursory work - but I have concluded he joined the 12th Bn KOYLI (Miners/Pioneers). This was formed in Leeds on 5 September 1914 by the West Yorkshire Coal Owners Association. It was a Pals-type Battalion that used its own numbering scheme. The man with number 1079 joined at Dewsbury, which I understand is where Albert was born (resided?).

I believe Albert's KOYLI number would originally have had a 12/ prefix - hence 12/1082 and the number itself would have been allotted in late September /early October 1914. These types of Battalions often raised more men than necessary for "normal" establishment and designated the surplus Depot Companies. He was either in that Company or was moved to it. Either, way the Depot Company of the 12/Bn KOYLI formed the nucleus of the 13th (Reserve) Battalion KOYLI from whom he was eventually transferred to the RWF.

Russ

 

Thank you for this. Yes you're correct it is Dewsbury. What you're saying is starting to fit in with what I know. His 3rd child was born early 1914 and died just before/around the time you said he'd have got this 1082 number. His first wife was admitted to a "mental asylum" we think because of the death of the little girl. I suspected he then went to war as an escape route. Its unclear what happened to his other 2 daughters at this point or when his first wife was admitted. Whats interesting is he marries his second wife in Aug 1918. His first wife dies on 3 Mar 1919 and he then marries his second wife AGAIN on 27 Mar 1919. 
 

With his service records gone, is the next best thing trying to trace what the 4th Bat RWF was doing in the years overseas and using the others that have survived as a guide? Or if some other form of evidence is found?

[RussT]

42 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

With his service records gone, is the next best thing trying to trace what the 4th Bat RWF was doing in the years overseas and using the others that have survived as a guide?

Yes, that is what I would do.

It is quite likely that the group of men, for whom I gave you the RWF consecutive number range, all moved together - so look for as many Service Records you can find for them and track their movements.

For example, I think they were sent to the BEF (1/4th Bn RWF) in July 1916 - i.e. not very long after they were transferred from the 13/KOYLI to the 3/4th RWF.

You can look at the 1/4th Bn RWF War Diary and track his/their movements/actions.

He originally had the RWF (4th Bn) TF number of 10641 but he was re-numbered to 202231, as per TF as a whole, in early 1917. Before this re-numbering any man who died in this number range would be in CWGC commemorated with his 5-digit number. The earliest I found was for September 1916, so probably died shortly after the draft arrived overseas. SDGW shows, as expected that there were all ex KOYLI. Other men from the draft who died after the re-numbering are commemorated with their 6-digit numbers - again all ex KOYLI.

Regards

Russ

 

[RussT]

2 minutes ago, RussT said:

You can look at the 1/4th Bn RWF War Diary and track his/their movements/actions.

War Diary is here:

Ancestry.co.uk - UK, World War I War Diaries (France, Belgium and Germany), 1914-1920

Note they were the Pioneer Battalion for the 47th Division.

This now make sense of the fact that the draft went from the 13th KOYLI (a Pioneer Battalion) via the 3/4th RWF for onwards posting to the 1/4th Bn RWF Pioneer Bn. So it's all self-consistent and explicable.

Russ

[FROGSMILE]

These are the specialist collar badges that he would have worn in 1/4th RWF as a divisional pioneer battalion.  See: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/169066-pioneers-14th-bn-royal-welsh-fusiliers-01-sep-1915-11-nov-1918/

 

Edited 18 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[RussT]

10454/202059 Bell's Service Record shows he was sent overseas from Southampton on 29/07/1916 to No 5 Infantry Base Depot (Rouen) and joined the 1/4th Bn RWF in the field on 05/08/1916.

The 1/4th Bn RWF War Diary records that 99 Other Ranks joined the Bn on the 05/08/1916. This is a lot less than the 200 or so men in alphabetical sequence & consecutive numbers identified on the Medal Roll, so it would be important to go through many more Records to improve confidence on the likely movement of Albert.

Russ

[danmb1987]

Thank you all again so much for this information.

Can I just clarify: when you say transfer from 3/4 Bttn RWF to 1/4 Bttn RWF is this first one like a holding area before they went? And is that why that souvenir photo has 3rd Bttn? Because its only on his marriage certificate that he refers to the 4th Bttn which is what you're saying is the 1/4 that went overseas? Is this the 4th Denbighshire Battalion? 

Its interesting you mention Southampton because its where his daughter mentioned he sailed from "when he left". Her story compared to what I've found don't always match. Neither does what my Grandad originally told me about Albert. 
 

I don't know how you keep track of these battalions that change numbers and merge over the years. Its like learning another language. 😅

[RussT]

20 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

Can I just clarify: when you say transfer from 3/4 Bttn RWF to 1/4 Bttn RWF is this first one like a holding area before they went?

The 1/4th Bn RWF was already in France when Albert joined KOYLI.

He was transferred from the KOYLI (13th Bn) to the RWF (3/4 Bn) in the UK in June 1916. These were both Reserve Battalions where men were trained and/or held, as you say, before posting overseas. Their main role was to train/prepare men for active service.

He was posted (not transferred) from the 3/4th Bn RWF (in the UK) to the 1/4th Bn RWF (already in France) via 5/IBD (in Rouen).

20 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

Is this the 4th Denbighshire Battalion? 

Yes

20 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

I don't know how you keep track of these battalions that change numbers and merge over the years. Its like learning another language.

That's because he had quite a bit of previous service and moved about quite a bit from one Regiment to another and various Battalions within a Regiment.

But rather than stare at all these posts and get a headache, why don't you just make a List/Table. The first column in the Table would be the date, subsequent columns would provide events, Regiments, transfers etc and other columns life events. It's quite simple to do. Go through this thread slowly and carefully, make the Table and then you will be able to see at a glance all the key information to confirm if it is self-consistent and/or whether any contradictions and/or gaps lie.

You can share the Table here if you want anyone to verify it and/or clarify/add to it.

Russ

[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, danmb1987 said:

Thank you all again so much for this information.

Can I just clarify: when you say transfer from 3/4 Bttn RWF to 1/4 Bttn RWF is this first one like a holding area before they went? And is that why that souvenir photo has 3rd Bttn? Because its only on his marriage certificate that he refers to the 4th Bttn which is what you're saying is the 1/4 that went overseas? Is this the 4th Denbighshire Battalion? 

Its interesting you mention Southampton because its where his daughter mentioned he sailed from "when he left". Her story compared to what I've found don't always match. Neither does what my Grandad originally told me about Albert. 
 

I don't know how you keep track of these battalions that change numbers and merge over the years. Its like learning another language. 😅

When war was first declared the few Territorials who had agreed to service overseas (7% as a proportion initially) became the ‘first line’ for each Territorial Force unit, becoming, for example: 1/4th (the first line unit of the 4th Battalion).  These battalions quickly deployed overseas.

Those Territorials who had committed to home defence only became the ‘second line’ e.g. 2/4th.  Eventually many of these battalions too went overseas, especially from 1916, but not initially.

Those volunteers still under training, physically unfit and requiring toughening up (aka hardening), or with other minor ailments or family commitments subsequently became the ‘third line’ and thus the 3/4th.(a training, draft-supplying reserve for the 1/4th and 2/4th).

These battalions divided into three categories, using what appear like fractions as designations, applied to the Territorial Force only.  The regulars and war-raised service battalions had their own discrete system of reserve/training units, although the underlying principles that governed their operation were similar.  Significantly although the day-to-day activity of all these reserve units was dominated by training they had also constituted the de facto national reserve for the defence of the U.K. in the event of invasion.

Edited 19 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[danmb1987]

18 hours ago, PRC said:

 

And going back to Paul Nixons’ website, he shows the Regular Army Battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers issued regimental service number 7787 at some point between the 10^th January 1900 (6341) and the 16^th January 1901 (7799). https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2012/03/northumberland-fusiliers-regular.html

Service records exist in the pre-war WO97 series for:-

7786 Ernest Walter Clay enlisted Derby 11^th January 1901. 12 years short service split 7 years in the colours and 5 in the reserves. Reached Depot at Newcaste the next day. Posted 3^rd Battalion on the 6^th February 1901.

7788 Frank Dawson enlisted Newcastle on Tyne 14^th January 1901, 12 years short service split 3 years in the colours and 9 in the reserves. Reached Depot same day. Posted 3^rd Battalion on the 6^th February 1901.

Fuller details can be seen in the paperwork available on FindMyPast and Genes Reunited.

Cheers,
Peter

This is a question due to my ignorance of the subject. If record 7786 survives, 7787 doesn't, and 7788 does how/why would 1 record go astray in the middle of others that survived? 

Also would his service record cover his numbers from KOYLI 1082 and RWF 202231 which were after Northumberland Fusiliers 7787? Or is there a separate records of these?

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

This is a question due to my ignorance of the subject. If record 7786 survives, 7787 doesn't, and 7788 does how/why would 1 record go astray in the middle of others that survived? 

Also would his service record cover his numbers from KOYLI 1082 and RWF 202231 which were after Northumberland Fusiliers 7787? Or is there a separate records of these?

1.  I suspect that the records were stored alphabetically rather than numerically as that is the most usual protocol.  The firebomb raid that struck the storage facility in the London Docks burned most records to cinders and only about 1/6th was saved, much of it singed and water damaged.

2.  The service record for each man encompassed all his movements between units into a single file.

Edited 19 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[danmb1987]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

1.  I suspect that the records were stored alphabetically rather than numerically as that is the most usual protocol.  The firebomb raid that struck the storage facility in the London Docks burned most records to cinders and only about 1/6th was saved, much of it singed and water damaged.

2.  The service record for each man encompassed all his movements between units into a single file.

What God awful bad luck I have. But It'll be the same for many doing research.

[Allan1892]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I suspect that the records were stored alphabetically rather than numerically as that is the most usual protocol.

I would say that you are correct as I have three ancestor soldiers that were brothers and their records survived albeit a bit burnt.

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

What God awful bad luck I have. But It'll be the same for many doing research.

British service records have been very badly denuded, yes.  Canada and ANZAC have been much more fortunate and to my great admiration provide access to most personnel records for free.

21 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

I would say that you are correct as I have three ancestor soldiers that were brothers and their records survived albeit a bit burnt.

Thank you for that confirmation.  Genealogists and pension specialists have the best information regarding the state of available records I think.

Edited 19 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

46 minutes ago, danmb1987 said:

This is a question due to my ignorance of the subject. If record 7786 survives, 7787 doesn't, and 7788 does how/why would 1 record go astray in the middle of others that survived? 

The WO97 series of records, (that's the National Archive category in their catalogue) were those whose service ended pre August 1914. They were stored separately and so weren't affected by the London Warehouse fire as a result of bombing in WW2.

There are lots of reasons why there are gaps. The records office may have amalgamated records from his earlier service with his Great War era service records - in which case they would have been in the London warehouse when it was bombed out. Of course this amalgamation didn't always happen. Purely anecdotally as I can't vouch for how generally this practice applied, but I've observed that for time expired men who enlisted in the Norfolk Regiment in the Great War, if they stated they had previously served with the Norfolks or another infantry regiment like the Suffolks, Bedfords, Essex or Northants that were served by the same records office at Warley, then the old records are normally merged in.

For those whose earlier service was with a Regiment that wasn't dealt with at Warley, and so a request would have had to be sent to transfer the records over from their old records office, then that doesn't seem to have happened.

It's not perfect as I've also come across old pre-war records that could have been merged but weren't - maybe the records clerk was lazy, the old records were mis-filed, the soldier didn't draw attention to his previous service, (perhaps because of a poor disciplinary or health record) or the practice was abandonned.

A quick check shows the KOYLI were dealt with at the York 1 records office, while the Northumberland Fusiliers came under York 2. So would seem a strong probability that the records for 7787 Albert Wharton Northumberland Fusiliers would have been merged with his new service record when he enlisted again with the KOYLI.

I note one of the original documents mentioned was a Ministry of Pensions card which listed his Northumberland Fusiliers, KOYLI and Royal Welsh Fusiliers service numbers. I suspect they were also checking to see if he had done enough years to qualify for a long service pension as well as any war disability pension. Again that hints at the paperwork having been amalgamated.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 19 October , 2023 by PRC
Typos

[danmb1987]

Thank you all for clearing that up for me. I've also managed to find the War Diary at the National Archives for 1/4 RWF and its free for a month if you download it in PDF. So that will be what I'm doing this afternoon. I doubt he'll be mentioned but I'd like to get an idea of what he might have been doing with the rest of the men. I've seen somewhere online a brief description but its just an overview.

[FROGSMILE]

It might be worth laying out an approximate and bare bones chronology based on the thread so far:

1.  Enlists 1896 as a Militiaman in 4th King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry), but purchases his discharge before completing basic training.

2. Re-enlists 1897-98 with same militia unit and presumably completes basic training and goes home.

3.  Enlists as a regular (or transfers to regulars from militia reserve?) with the newly raised 3rd Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers in early 1900, one of two new regular battalion’s raised for that regiment**.  Remains on home service and doesn’t deploy to South Africa.

4.  In 1915 re-enlists with the King’s Own (Yorkshire Light Infantry) and as a mature man with previous service is sent to the 13th Reserve Battalion, a war-raised service unit used for training reinforcements and home defence.

5.  As a unit probably with surplus men he’s posted as part of a large draft to 3/4th RWF, also a reserve/training unit, in order to bring that battalion up to strength so that it can fulfil its role as a feeder unit for its aligned battalion overseas in France.  Men with labouring experience were sought as suitable pioneers.

6.  Soon after arrival with 3/4th RWF he is sent as part of a draft of battle casualty replacements to an infantry base depot in France and, after administrative processing there, onward to 1/4th (Denbigh Pioneers) Battalion RWF in the field.  Remains with battalion until demobilisation after the Armistice.

**this led to the numeric re sequencing of the regiment’s militia battalions in Feb 1900 and its volunteer battalions in Apr 1908.

Edited 19 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE