Did RSMs wear stripes ?

[Simon Cains]

Hi, my great grandfather became an RSM.  In some photos he has 3 stripes and a badge above, but in another he just has the single small badge on lower sleeve.  ( on the right in the group photo with his corporal brother).   

Did RSMs wear stripes ? Otherwise soldiers might be really caught out seeing someone who looked like a private, if they didn't spot the tiny badge and recognise an RSM !

So is his rank in the family photo RSM , or not such a high rank yet ?  He has the marksman's large red badge on his lower sleeve but maybe also a little badge just above it, as well as the badge above his stripes.

Sorry I don't know the dates of these photos, the family photo may be 1915,  the group of 3 brothers is during the time of the Derby scheme.

Thanks very much.

[max7474]

When he had the photo taken with the child he was a Colour Sergeant.  He was subsequently promoted and had the group photo taken.

[Simon Cains]

Thank you. So the only difference between a private and an RSM was that tiny badge low down ?  Wow, that must have caught a few men out.  

[RussT]

@FROGSMILE will I'm sure be able to give chapter & verse.

Russ

[TullochArd]

The cloth badge on lower left arm is a Skill at Arms badge.  There is a similar version with a Star above the Crossed Rifles (instead of crown) within a wreath that is identified as Best Shot in a Battalion.  The crown in the OP suggests an even higher achievement perhaps?  Where's Frogsmile?

Edited 4 August , 2023 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/08/2023 at 20:02, Simon Cains said:

Thank you. So the only difference between a private and an RSM was that tiny badge low down ?  Wow, that must have caught a few men out.  

You raise an interesting point with that comment.   For over half a century all the NCOs rank badges were on the upper arm using point down stripes in ascending combinations of twos, threes and fours, with a single stripe introduced as an unpaid starting level to assess character and leadership.  Ergo the top man had four stripes, but a crown was added above it and during the early 1860s it was moved to the lower arm.

In the late 1860s the same badge was moved to be point up in the infantry and some other arms, but still on the lower arm.  However, at the same time there was no common agreement between the artillery, engineers, cavalry, and infantry as to the titles of all the ranks and how their badges were configured, or positioned and this led to increasing confusion regarding equivalence when more and more specialisms were being introduced**.

This was debated when numerous matters were being considered for a set of reforms being instituted by a government reformer Hugh Childers, and as part of that process it was decided to elevate sergeant majors at unit level to a new rank of warrant officer.

This new rank was to be quasi officer like with some of the extra lace and other features common in an officers uniform so it was felt inappropriate to continue to wear stripes.  Instead a smaller more discreet badge of a crown on the lower sleeve, alongside the other distinguishing features was considered sufficient (a simple crown also worn by a major on the shoulder, it must’ve seemed logical to give the sergeant major one on the arm)##.

In July 1915 the simple crown was changed to a coat of arms (as worn by Foot Guards) and the title of the holder known army wide as the Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM), regardless of which part (arm or service) of the Army he was in.

**the period between 1860 and 1870 was one of significant change both, technically and administratively, and part of that affected rank markings.

## there were a few exceptions, Territorial Force units each had a regular colour sergeant on attachment selected to be ‘Acting Sergeant Major’ for the battalion, he was not a warrant officer and so was differentiated by the wear of the old style four inverted stripes and crown on the lower arm.  Foot Guards and Household Cavalry had their own special badges and distinctions for warrant officers worn mostly on the upper arm - see Scots Guards below.

Edited 10 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

The cloth badge on lower left arm is a Skill at Arms badge.  There is a similar version with a Star above the Crossed Rifles (instead of crown) within a wreath that is identified as Best Shot in a Battalion.  The crown in the OP suggests an even higher achievement perhaps?  Where's Frogsmile?

Best shot among sergeant’s (collectively all those below warrant officer) in a battalion.

In 1926 warrant officers were included.

It was produced in silver bullion, gilt bullion and drab khaki worsted thread.  Backings for bullion were scarlet, blue, rifle green, grey and drab.

Edited 4 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Simon Cains]

47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

You raise an interesting point with that comment.   For over a hundred years all the rank badges we’re on the upper arm using point down stripes in ascending combinations of twos, threes and fours, with a single stripe introduced as an unpaid starting level to assess character and leadership.  Ergo the top man had four stripes, but a crown was added above it and during the 1860s it was moved to the lower arm.

In the 1870s the same badge, still point down was moved to the upper arm once again.  However, at the same time there was no common agreement between the artillery, cavalry, and infantry as to the titles of all the ranks and how their badges were configured and this led to confusion regarding equivalence.

This was debated when numerous matters were being considered for a set of reforms being instituted by a government reformer Hugh Childers, and as part of that process it was decided to elevate sergeant majors at unit level to a new rank of warrant officer.

This new rank was to be quasi officer like with some of the extra lace and other features common in an officers uniform so it was felt inappropriate to continue to wear stripes.  Instead a smaller more discreet badge of a crown on the lower sleeve, alongside the other distinguishing features was considered sufficient.

In July 1915 the simple crown was changed to a coat of arms and the title of the holder known army wide as the Regimental Sergeant Major regardless of which part of the Army he was in.

OK thanks for that.  But Simeon on the right still seems to have a very plain uniform exactly like his brother John a corporal on the left, no sign of an officer's lace etc.  The officers' pictures I can find have a smart jacket with shirt and tie underneath, and a waist and shoulder belt.  But I don't know how much of that was kept on for trench warfare.

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/08/2023 at 21:33, Simon Cains said:

OK thanks for that.  But Simeon on the right still seems to have a very plain uniform exactly like his brother John a corporal on the left, no sign of an officer's lace etc.  The officers' pictures I can find have a smart jacket with shirt and tie underneath, and a waist and shoulder belt.  But I don't know how much of that was kept on for trench warfare.

The extra lace I mentioned related to the date quoted of the 1880s Simon.  After the Boer War 1899-1902 all soldiers started to wear khaki woollen uniforms for the majority of their duties and on active service.  Apart from working routine the sergeant’s and the sergeant major messed (dined) and socialised together whenever possible and maintained a separate space away from the men as a routine protocol.  As well as rank badges there were various other aspects of their dress that marked out their status including a leather cross belt (‘Sam Browne’)as shown below.  The photos you have are not conveying that because of the relaxed circumstances, without hats, belts and equipment, etc.

 

 

Edited 10 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Simon Cains]

Thanks, very helpful as always.  So just an ordinary uniform, smartened up with a belt and shoulder belt.  Without those, very difficult to spot an RSM.  ( So at least the German snipers would not be able to spot them either).

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Simon Cains said:

Thanks, very helpful as always.  So just an ordinary uniform, smartened up with a belt and shoulder belt.  Without those, very difficult to spot an RSM.  ( So at least the German snipers would not be able to spot them either).

Yes, although during the course of the war, whenever in the actual trenches, sergeant majors and indeed officers commonly wore soldiers equipment to make themselves less of a target.  Ergo the items of obvious visual distinction became more confined to when out of the front line.

Edited 5 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

I would just add, Frog, that it was in the soldier’s best interests that he learned to recognise the RSM and the WO2s whatever they were wearing!

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, PhilB said:

I would just add, Frog, that it was in the soldier’s best interests that he learned to recognise the RSM and the WO2s whatever they were wearing!

Indeed Phil.  In my experience that isn’t something someone who has not served in the military readily understands, so I’ve tried to confine the focus of my answers accordingly.

[Simon Cains]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Indeed Phil.  In my experience that isn’t something someone who has not served in the military readily understands, so I’ve tried to confine the focus of my answers accordingly.

OK, but the West Yorkshires eventually had 32 battalions, each of up to 1000 men, so that is quite a few soldiers who needed to be able to spot their RSM.   Or (back to an earlier question), did each battalion actually have its own RSM , not just one for the whole regiment ?   I see the West Yorkshires had 12 RSMs who died, mostly from different battalions.  Given a death rate of 10-12%, that does suggest a lot of RSMs, so at least several holding the post at one time.

A retired colonel on a battlefield tour told me last week there was only one RSM, who reported directly to the Colonel of the regiment, but he was probably talking about his own experience in the small post-WW2 army with 2-3 battalions, not WW1.

But an RSM would also meet other units in battle, and other soldiers they might meet on their travels, transport etc.  There must have been a few occasions when they failed to spot that little badge.

Thanks everyone.

[FROGSMILE]

On 06/08/2023 at 12:14, Simon Cains said:

OK, but the West Yorkshires eventually had 32 battalions, each of up to 1000 men, so that is quite a few soldiers who needed to be able to spot their RSM.   Or (back to an earlier question), did each battalion actually have its own RSM , not just one for the whole regiment ?   I see the West Yorkshires had 12 RSMs who died, mostly from different battalions.  Given a death rate of 10-12%, that does suggest a lot of RSMs, so at least several holding the post at one time.

A retired colonel on a battlefield tour told me last week there was only one RSM, who reported directly to the Colonel of the regiment, but he was probably talking about his own experience in the small post-WW2 army with 2-3 battalions, not WW1.

But an RSM would also meet other units in battle, and other soldiers they might meet on their travels, transport etc.  There must have been a few occasions when they failed to spot that little badge.

Thanks everyone.

1. There was one RSM “holding the post” per battalion.

2. Some became casualties, or were promoted (as quartermasters or other commissions) so the total numbers within a regiment of many battalions naturally fluctuated to an extent.

3.  The term RSM did not enter common usage in the infantry until 1915, because as I’ve already explained there was previously only one in a battalion, known as THE sergeant major.  RSM had been a cavalry term because there was only one unit for each regiment in that arm of service rather than multiple battalions as in the infantry.

4.  As regards their being recognised, the circles they moved in (generally close to or accompanying the commanding officer) and the central role that they undertook meant that they commonly stood out without the need to wave their badge of rank about.

Edited 8 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

As Frogsmile has indicated, a soldier needed to recognise the RSM and WOs in just his own battalion as he would not normally come into contact with other battalions of his regiment unless transferred into one. I would add the Provost Sergeant to the list of those who need to be recognised at a distance so that cautionary evasive action can be taken!

[Simon Cains]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

1. There was one RSM “holding the post” per battalion.

2. Some became casualties, or were promoted (as quartermasters or other commissions) so the total numbers within a regiment of many battalions naturally fluctuated to an extent.

3.  The term RSM did not enter common usage in the infantry until 1915, because as I’ve already explained there was previously only one in a battalion, known as THE sergeant major.  RSM had been a cavalry term because there was only one unit for each regiment in that arm of service rather than multiple battalions as in the infantry.

4.  As regards their being recognised, the circles they moved in (generally close to or accompanying the commanding officer) and the central role that they undertook meant that they commonly stood out without the need to wave their badge of rank about.

Thank you. So was it unusual for the RSM to be involved in an infantry attack, as mine was on the 13th ?  Unfortunately he was killed in this action.  I wonder what the highest rank of officer would be involved in this 4 battalion attack ?   Thanks.  

[FROGSMILE]

On 06/08/2023 at 16:26, Simon Cains said:

Thank you. So was it unusual for the RSM to be involved in an infantry attack, as mine was on the 13th ?  Unfortunately he was killed in this action.  I wonder what the highest rank of officer would be involved in this 4 battalion attack ?   Thanks.  

The RSM was most commonly responsible for organising the reserve ammunition issue and the resupply from the front line store, including grenades**.  For major assaults he also often took overall charge of ‘battle police’, who were men assigned to move any PW rearwards during the assault, but also to pick up any of his own stragglers plus those of any flanking units.  It could lead to exposure to becoming a casualty on those occasions.

As regards ranks in a four battalion attack (an infantry brigade), each battalion was led by its own officers so it was not at all uncommon for lieutenant colonel’s to be killed leading their men.  There were numerous examples of this throughout the war with some especially notable cases during the first day of the [first] Battle of the Somme, on 1st July 1916.

In addition there were cases of brigade commanders (brigadier generals) being killed on occasions when, desperate for battlefield situational awareness, in a time before swift, efficient and reliable communications existed, they had gone forward to try and observe the situation.

**the four CQMSs and the RQMS were at second and third line locations, respectively.

Edited 10 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

As explaned there were two men to hold the Wo1 spot in a unit (RSM and RQMS) there were a number of Wo2 (CSM, CQMS SQMS BQMS FarQMS SadQMS) to name a few depending on want unit your in.

I still hold my warrent from her magesty some where, so I could beat my kids and men with a nice pace stick.

S.B

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/08/2023 at 00:04, stevenbecker said:

Mate,

As explaned there were two men to hold the Wo1 spot in a unit (RSM and RQMS) there were a number of Wo2 (CSM, CQMS SQMS BQMS FarQMS SadQMS) to name a few depending on want unit your in.

I still hold my warrent from her magesty some where, so I could beat my kids and men with a nice pace stick.

S.B

Steve the battalion RQMS** is and has always been a WO2 since that rank was established.

CQMS, Squadron QMS and BQMS are not warrant officers at all, and are collectively categorised as staff sergeants.

** before July 1915 known as ‘the QMS’ and ranked as a first class staff sergeant.

Edited 29 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

In our Army the RQMS is a Wo1 along with the RSM while all other are Wo2 and they also have a warrent.

At lest in my day they did, as I have mine, as SSM, not making the dizzy hights of RSM.

of cause in 1914 you maybe right, as I am taking about our Army, but as we followed your example, one could asume there's my mistake purhaps?

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/08/2023 at 02:04, stevenbecker said:

Mate,

In our Army the RQMS is a Wo1 along with the RSM while all other are Wo2 and they also have a warrent.

At lest in my day they did, as I have mine, as SSM, not making the dizzy hights of RSM.

of cause in 1914 you maybe right, as I am taking about our Army, but as we followed your example, one could asume there's my mistake purhaps?

 

Yes I think you’ve made a mistake Steve.  In 1914 the AIF infantry were organised identically to British infantry.

In the 1970s I worked for a period with both Australian and New Zealand infantry on tactical exercise, in Britain, Singapore and Hong Kong.  They were and are still organised the same, except that they no longer used the term ‘colour sergeant’ and stuck with the generic ‘staff sergeant’ across all arms of the service for simplicity.  The RSM was a warrant officer class one and the RQMS a warrant officer class two, exactly the same as the battalion I was with at the time.  As I know you will appreciate, there can only be one senior man in the battalion and mess and he was the RSM, the RQMS was one rank below and subordinate.  My last direct experience with Australian troops was in 2008 and they were still the same.  The only addition being a warrant officer of the Army working in the General Staff, something also emulated from the US by Britain and Canada as well.

Edited 8 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Simon’s copy of the War Diary page, above, impresses me with a few things:-

1/ It’s beautifully written, especially considering the conditions under which he was probably operating. (Just one spelling mistake I noticed!)

3/ The attack, against “very heavy MG & rifle fire” sounds like a forlorn hope.

2/ The reporting of Death and Wounded figures had, by that time of the war become quite casual - just a footnote. Or was it simply stiff upper lip?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

Simon’s copy of the War Diary page, above, impresses me….

The reporting of Death and Wounded figures had, by that time of the war become quite casual - just a footnote. Or was it simply stiff upper lip?

I think that by that stage of the war many, especially the officers and men at regimental duty, had become semi brutalised and quite inured to casualty reporting after an action that would have anticipated a butcher’s bill even before they crossed the start line (line of departure into an assault).

Edited 8 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/08/2023 at 10:21, Simon Cains said:

Thanks, very helpful as always.  So just an ordinary uniform, smartened up with a belt and shoulder belt.  Without those, very difficult to spot an RSM.  ( So at least the German snipers would not be able to spot them either).

Simon whilst searching in the forum for something else I stumbled upon this earlier thread of yours where quite a lot of the sergeant major rank details were previously explained.  Presumably they went through one ear and out the other 😉 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/290953-standard-tunics-and-badges-of-rank/#comment-3015492

 

Edited 9 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE