Standard tunics, and badges of rank ?

[Simon Cains]

Hi, sorry for all the questions recently, I always get such good information back.  In this photo of men on leave, I suppose these are just regular men's tunics, would they be worn on all occasions  ( trenches, parades, home leave etc ?  ).  The one on the right seems to have a high uncomfortable collar, or maybe he is just unlucky to have a short neck (?)  On the left is my g-grandfather's brother, a corporal in the 10th Essex with his two stripes.  On the right is my g-grandfather who was rising up the ranks, already a serjeant by May 1915, and he was an RSM in August 1916. This photo must be after October 1915 ( the Derby scheme armband).  He only has a tiny crown on the lower sleeve, is that for a warrant officer class 2 ?  I think an RSM would be a WO class 1, would that be a coat-of-arms badge ?  So he had not reached that rank yet.   They seem to be very small discreet insignia for such important ranks.   Can anyone spot any other insignia or unusual items on the two soldiers ?  My g-great grandfather had won a marksmanship badge in 1913, a very large badge on the lower sleeve, as seen on my previous posts, so I am not sure why he doesn't have it on here.   Thanks very much.

 

[Gardenerbill]

The men standing are wearing simplified SD jackets.

[TullochArd]

I believe the small crown in 1916 Infantry terms indicates a Battalion Sergeant Major which was the equivalent of modern Regimental Sergeant Major......a peculiarity that was eventually ironed out in British Infantry Battalions during the latter stages of the Great War but persisted as a legacy in other some units e.g King's African Rifles until the 1950's. 

 

I'd offer that the collar anomaly is likely an personal tailoring decision based on presentation and smartness.

 

 

Edited 20 May , 2021 by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

The plain crown became the badge of the new WOII under Army Order No 70 of May 1915, one of whose several possible appointments was CSM.  At the same time the sergeant major of battalion was elevated to a new higher grade Warrant officer 1st class (WOI) and adopted the coat of arms badge. He gradually became known by the title RSM, which had already been in use by the cavalry since the 1890s, and was eventually adopted by all arms as a suitable and common appointment title, apart from by the Foot Guards.

 

Given the presence of the Derby Scheme arm band it suggests that the soldier with crown is a WOII (CSM).

Edited 20 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Simon Cains]

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The plain crown became the badge of the new WOII under Army Order No 70 of May 1915, one of whose several possible appointments was CSM.  At the same time the sergeant major of battalion was elevated to a new higher grade Warrant officer 1st class (WOI) and adopted the coat of arms badge. He gradually became known by the title RSM, which had already been in use by the cavalry since the 1890s, and was eventually adopted by all arms as a suitable and common appointment title, apart from by the Foot Guards.

 

Given the presence of the Derby Scheme arm band it suggests that the soldier with crown is a WOII (CSM).

Thank you again for all your helpful replies to my naive questions.  I think you have also just corrected another of my mistakes, I thought that there would only be one Regimental Serjeant Major in a Regiment, but it sounds as though every battalion could have one ?  So they were not responsible for any particular aspect ( eg training) of the whole regiment.  My g-grandfather seemed to be with the 12th battalion for the whole 9 months that he was an RSM.

[FROGSMILE]

58 minutes ago, Simon Cains said:

Thank you again for all your helpful replies to my naive questions.  I think you have also just corrected another of my mistakes, I thought that there would only be one Regimental Serjeant Major in a Regiment, but it sounds as though every battalion could have one ?  So they were not responsible for any particular aspect ( eg training) of the whole regiment.  My g-grandfather seemed to be with the 12th battalion for the whole 9 months that he was an RSM.

Yes, each battalion had a RSM, it is common to be confused by that.  It was only the cavalry that had used that term before 1915, but afterwards it gradually became accepted as a common title even though not entirely logical.  The RSM was (is still) the commanding officer's link with his soldiers and embodies within himself the standards and 'tone' of his battalion.  He above all things was responsible for discipline and headed up the warrant officers' and sergeants' mess of his battalion, but on operations he also had other, specific tasks in support of the unit's policing and logistical support too.

Edited 21 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

23 hours ago, Simon Cains said:

   They seem to be very small discreet insignia for such important ranks.  

 

They do, Simon. However there is something in the bearing of a WO2/CSM that makes it hard to mistake him for a private and it would be a mistake only made once!

[FROGSMILE]

These are the badges concerned.  The cloth ones were made from worsted wool thread and the metal badges were formed from a brass zinc alloy known as gilding metal.  Although both were in constant use, over the course of the war the metal became more common as they were designed to be removed during the laundering of uniform.  As things became more organised this often involved deep cleaning and de-lousing, so a man would not usually get the same jacket back, thus the badge could be taken off and placed on the new issue.

 

[exXIX]

On 21/05/2021 at 17:41, PhilB said:

They do, Simon. However there is something in the bearing of a WO2/CSM that makes it hard to mistake him for a private and it would be a mistake only made once!

A mistake you only make once...eventually everyone knows 'The Badge' or 'The RasMan' in a Battalion...mainly because you will have met him frequently and rather noisily shall we say...

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, exXIX said:

A mistake you only make once...eventually everyone knows 'The Badge' or 'The RasMan' in a Battalion...mainly because you will have met him frequently and rather noisily shall we say...

Except that none of that terminology was common at the time of WW1 and we need to be careful not to mistakenly apply the mores of recent times to back then. The shouting and screaming and stamping of feet is something that evolved with the conscription of National Service and perceived needs to condition civilians quickly.  Contemporary accounts suggest that it was a less frenzied and more measured disciplinary culture at the time of these photographs.

[Simon Cains]

My brother just sent me this anecdote  :-

When the RSM at Sandhurst introduced himself to us, he said, "I am a Regimental Sergeant Major, so you will call me 'Sir'. You are Officer  Cadets, so I will call you 'Sir'. The difference is, you will mean it".

 

That would have been around 1982.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Simon Cains said:

My brother just sent me this anecdote  :-

When the RSM at Sandhurst introduced himself to us, he said, "I am a Regimental Sergeant Major, so you will call me 'Sir'. You are Officer  Cadets, so I will call you 'Sir'. The difference is, you will mean it".

 

That would have been around 1982.

Yes that’s a well known quote Simon, and has appeared in a number of published articles regarding Sandhurst. 

Edited 23 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 The shouting and screaming and stamping of feet is something that evolved with the conscription of National Service and perceived needs to condition civilians quickly.  Contemporary accounts suggest that it was a less frenzied and more measured disciplinary culture at the time of these photographs.

It’s an interesting take. Is this something you’ve picked up during your readings or is there actual evidence?

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, PhilB said:

It’s an interesting take. Is this something you’ve picked up during your readings or is there actual evidence?

Picked up during very extensive reading over a long time Phil. It’s not something that lends itself to physical evidence of course.

[PhilB]

One could say, though, that it was even more important in wartime (1914-18) to “decivilianize” civilians quickly!

 

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, PhilB said:

One could say, though, that it was even more important in wartime (1914-18) to “decivilianize” civilians quickly!

 

Yes Phil, I wasn’t suggesting that there was no discipline, just that it was less frenzied.  If you read Victorian and WW1 accounts there’s nary a mention of what I’d call shouty RSMs that I’ve been able to find, and yet such men were pivotal in the training of battalions.  It’s led me to conclude that it was probably a reflection of different generations.  There was less of the “don’t cross my square”, “get of the grass” type of discipline, and foot drill did not involve “raising the knee thigh high and driving it into the ground” either. 
 

NB.  Incidentally there was also no “all arms drill course” run by the Foot Guards back then either.  Each regiment taught its drill internally using manuals of drill and ceremonial.  This led to some significant differences between units, particularly with regards to light infantry drill.

Edited 23 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[QUEX]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes Phil, I wasn’t suggesting that there was no discipline, just that it was less frenzied.  If you read Victorian and WW1 accounts there’s nary a mention of what I’d call shouty RSMs that I’ve been able to find, and yet such men were pivotal in the training of battalions.  It’s led me to conclude that it was probably a reflection of different generations.  There was less of the “don’t cross my square”, “get of the grass” type of discipline, and foot drill did not involve “raising the knee thigh high and driving it into the ground” either. 
 

NB.  Incidentally there was also no “all arms drill course” run by the Foot Guards back then either.  Each regiment taught its drill internally using manuals of drill and ceremonial.  This led to some significant differences between units, particularly with regards to light infantry drill.

 

Yes - I can remember an inconclusive discussion elsewhere of when sweary men waving sticks and screaming 'bend the knee' became a thing in the British army. No firm answer emerged, but general conclusion was probably interwar.   

[exXIX]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Except that none of that terminology was common at the time of WW1 and we need to be careful not to mistakenly apply the mores of recent times to back then. The shouting and screaming and stamping of feet is something that evolved with the conscription of National Service and perceived needs to condition civilians quickly.  Contemporary accounts suggest that it was a less frenzied and more measured disciplinary culture at the time of these photographs.

Yes, tend to agree but the CSM/RSM were still gods even in the Army of 100 years ago, I would think that the 'Drill' Sgt of Etaples Base training establishment were feared probably in the same way, where as the Sgt's within a Company would tend to be more benevolent with a touch of iron when required...

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, exXIX said:

Yes, tend to agree but the CSM/RSM were still gods even in the Army of 100 years ago, I would think that the 'Drill' Sgt of Etaples Base training establishment were feared probably in the same way, where as the Sgt's within a Company would tend to be more benevolent with a touch of iron when required...

 

They were certainly top of the tree in an inherently hierarchical institution, but it's important not to look at that long ago through the prism of modern experience.  I recommend lots of reading of contemporary accounts such as the First Hundred Thousand, and 15 Rounds a Minute, for the WW1 period and From Private to Field Marshal for a period spanning further back.  You will find no mention of 'Gods' or frenzied shouting and stamping around.

Edited 23 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, QUEX said:

 

Yes - I can remember an inconclusive discussion elsewhere of when sweary men waving sticks and screaming 'bend the knee' became a thing in the British army. No firm answer emerged, but general conclusion was probably interwar.   

I agree with that conclusion after long study.  A big influence was the Guards Drill Course because it involved immersion in a Guards culture that was based on centuries of barracks drill from a time when Foot Guards did not provide garrisons for overseas stations in peacetime.  Instead they largely remained in Buck House, Jimmies, Wellington Bks, Windsor and Caterham, taking to the field only for major conflict.  It was an entirely different culture and, until the drill course, did not permeate the rest of the infantry/Army.

Edited 23 May , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[QUEX]

On 23/05/2021 at 17:10, FROGSMILE said:

I agree with that conclusion after long study.  A big influence was the Guards Drill Course because it involved immersion in a Guards culture that was based on centuries of barracks drill from a time when Foot Guards did not provide garrisons for overseas stations in peacetime.  Instead they largely remained in Buck House, Jimmies, Wellington Bks, Windsor and Caterham, taking to the field only for major conflict.  It was an entirely different culture and, until the drill course, did not permeate the rest of the infantry/Army.

Actually, looking over old Pathe newsreels on YouTube of the trooping of the colour before and after the Second World War, bending the knee/driving the foot seems a post-45 thing. Pre-war the foot seems to be 'slid' when coming to the halt.  

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, QUEX said:

Actually, looking over old Pathe newsreels on YouTube of the trooping of the colour before and after the Second World War, bending the knee/driving the foot seems a post-45 thing. Pre-war the foot seems to be 'slid' when coming to the halt.  

Yes I agree that it’s apparent from most newsreels of the time, although I cannot be sure when the knee bending became so pronounced.  Foot Drill was very ‘regimental’ and I’ve read numerous and consistent accounts that combining  different regiments, on large scale, was an absolute nightmare for the parade’s coordinator.  In particular there was differing ‘light infantry’ drill between regiments, and similar problems for rifles other than the 60th (KRRC) and RB, who were used to working together via their shared depot.  I’ve gained the impression that, in part, placing the Guards as the exemplars who would provide direct assistance and guidance at such parades, was with intent to improve commonality.   None of this is to say that the drill previously was bad, and indeed examination of old pathe newsreels from the 20s/30s shows that on the contrary, it was very good.

 

NB.  There have been surprisingly few 'manuals of drill and ceremonial', all produced since Edward VII's reign (previously such manuals were more combined manoeuvre and arms drill for use in the field as much as in ceremonial).  A comparison of the most recent two iterations might reveal any changes to knee bending during movements.

Edited 16 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE