Armenac Kemkemian - Interpreter

[Eran Tearosh]

All,

A short poem that was posted on a Facebook group sent me on another deep look at Beersheba War Cemetery. Although I knew about it – I never looked at the details of a single Indian war dead buried there. As there was no Indian involvement in this area – I assumed that it was a secondary burial site from one of the small cemeteries scattered along the Gaza-Beersheba front, from the period before Gaza III and the Capture of Beersheba, and it will be a British person from the Indian Army. The reason I thought so is that it can't be a Muslim, as there are no crescents in this cemetery; it can't be a Sikh or Hindu, as they are cremated, not buried. So, it had to be a Christian.

This time I looked at the details and said to myself: Wow! This is weird!

So, the name is Armenac Kemkemian – Without a doubt, an Armenian name. According to CWGC records, he was an interpreter, from the Corps of Guides and Interpreters, Indian Army. This of course is the reason he appears in CWGC records as an Indian casualty. He was attached to the Supply Section, 2^nd Australian Light Horse Brigade. Killed from an aerial attack with a few Australians and buried at Shellal, as can be seen in this photo, from the AWM collections: https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C293963

I found that Armenac Kemkemian was mentioned on this 2010 GWF thread, by my friend Michaeldr (Pages 2-3): https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/148377-beersheba-war-cemetery/. Reading the thread, it seems there are a few updates in his CWGC records since 2010.

Being an interpreter means that he was either an Arabic or Turkish speaker (or both), which suggests that he was most probably a local (Middle East) recruit. Note this:

 

He could be recruited from the Armenian community in Egypt, but let me go wild for a minute – Maybe from the refugees of Musa Dagh, brought to Alexandria; Or maybe from the refugees, Jewish and Christian (Including Armenians), that were deported from the Holy Land and arrived in Alexandria on American ships.

Over the last few years, I initiated a few events with the local Armenian community in Israel and the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate in Jerusalem, regarding the Armenian involvement in the EEF, through the Armenian Legion, also known as the Legion de Orient.  I called someone from the Patriarchate, to look if they have this surname, Kemkemian, in their records (long shot, but worth a try).

I guess that somewhere, there are some records of his recruitment. Any help will be appreciated.

Eran 

 

 

 

[stevenbecker]

Eran,

You pose an interesting question, as I have many such men attached to AIF (LH) units in Egypt and Palesatine.

Like most, I have them down as Egyptian Army, recruited in Egypt

The names are many and veried and could contain many more Armenians I have not seen?

Your mention of the Corps of Guides and Interpreters is new to me, as I have not come across it before?

I have to wonder why Indian Army, when the British were doing the same thing in Egypt?

names like

GIRGAS    Isaac    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    to Interpreter ASqn/01 LHR 1-16
GOBRIAL    Caspar    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde Trn 12-14
HANNA    Milhail or Mikhail    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    to Interpreter BSqn/01 LHR 1-16
HANNA    Nasti    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 10 LHR 1-18 

Just to name a few of the many I have on record, may not be Egyptian Army after all?

S.B

[Keith_history_buff]

From the brief time I spent looking at interpreters, these men were employed locally by HM Forces. I would imagine it were similar to the arrangements for interpreters for British and Australian forces (Operation Herrick and Operation Slipper + Operation Highroad respectively) over the past 20 or so years.

I think that the administrators at CWGC have made a big leap by assuming they were formally recruited into the Indian Army's Corps of Guides and Interpreters as the only formal body of interpreters in the military forces of HM King George V. What use would a Greek interpreter be of on the North West Frontier? 

Had it been the case they were part of the Indian Army, these men would not appear in a British Army civilian medal roll. Instead they would be in records compiled by the India Office and since destroyed.

The medal rolls for the interpreters, like that of the London Regiment, are useful insofar as they record the period of time whilst in a theatre of war. This is the nearest that you will get to a service record. In order to be eligible for a BWM from the War Office, the recipients had to have been 'members of duly recognised or authorized organisations'. As a consequence of such service, and to have therefore 'rendered approved service overseas.. between 5th August 1914, and 11th November 1918, both dates inclusive', they became eligible for the British War Medal.  Regarding the first quote in blue font, the "recognised organisations" had their own medal rolls. The interpreters that had been employed by the MEF/BSF and EEF therefore had their own respective rolls. In a similar manner, those who served in medical units would likewise have their own rolls too. (Sourced from Army Order 266 of 1919.)

Local interpreters in Egypt and Palestine appear in the medal roll WO 329/2340, Egyptian HQ
Images 354 to 417 inclusive (of 424) of this medal roll (via Ancestry) list various names, Taranto, M being the first. Upon reading the list, a lot of Armenian family names are appearing.

 

Given they were not formally engaged as soldiers in the British Army, they were not eligible for the Victory Medal.
 

[Keith_history_buff]

Interesting that he has a CWGC headstone devoid of icons, like that of interpreter Camille Jean Edouard DE WATTINE of the Belgian Army,
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/4041893/camille-jean-edouard-de-wattine/

and of interpreter Louis Eugène RENAULT of the French Army (10 Aug 1871 - 4 June 1916)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/44043818/louis-eugene-renault

[Keith_history_buff]

Image of the De Wattine headstone
https://jackdeighton.co.uk/2020/11/11/birr-cross-roads-cemetery-belgium/

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The IWM has a mention of these under the term "Corps Of Interpreters" of which men from all over the place were taken for the services.

The Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army is only mentioned in relation to four men buried in Egypt/Palestine.

Did you read the articale " Improvising Language Capability: The British Army's Corps of Interpreters, 1914–1915"

S.B

[Keith_history_buff]

I see no reason why there would be a need to retain records relating to locally employed civilians being codified in Kings Regulations, in the same manner that service records had to be maintained for former soldiers, who could reenlist and serve an accumulated amount of time that would result in an army pension.

Prior to 1914, if a soldier died in peacetime, his pension entitlement disappeared with him, Consequently, his service record was disposed, as the requirement to retain it - possibility of a future pension - had disappeared.

Following the same logic, I would think it unlikely that interpreter Armenac Kemkemian had details of next of kin, and that when he died, no further consideration would be made for medals or similar.

[Eran Tearosh]

Hi Steve and Keith!

 

Steve - Yes, I read the article you mentioned. Doesn't help that much regarding the specific Corps of Guides and Interpreters, Indian Army. As a matter of fact - Can't find a word regarding this unit. 

 

Keith - Found your remarks on this on older threads, and I was planning to send you a PM, but here you are...

Have you got any details about this unit? How come it is not mentioned anywhere in the detailed lists of the EEF? There must be some HQ/center that would send those interpreters to the various units, like the case of Armenac Kemkemian, attached to the 2nd ALH Brigade. 

Both Armenians and Jews in the region were better educated than most ethnic groups around the Middle East at that time (Very typical of minorities), including knowledge of several languages. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that some of them will be recruited as interpreters.  I found that many Armenians and Jews were recruited into the Ottoman Army and it should be no surprise that the same thing happened with the EEF. You wrote: "Local interpreters in Egypt and Palestine appear in the medal roll WO 329/2340, Egyptian HQ. Images 354 to 417 inclusive (of 424) of this medal roll (via Ancestry) list various names, Taranto, M being the first. Upon reading the list, a lot of Armenian family names are appearing." Do you have that file? (I'm not on Ancestry). 

 

Eran

 

Edited 28 July , 2023 by Eran Tearosh

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Eran,

I had not accessed Ancestry to capture this info, and requests for lookups are understandably forbidden by the terms of the forum. I merely made a note to self of where the records start, and where they end.

After some sleuthing, I was able to come across the following grouping which may be of interest to you, It should be possible to identify Armenian interpreters. You can download this as a csv file.
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/385

Regarding the employment of local translators, I can well imagine they were classified as "lines of communication" and administered by the 3rd Echelon of General Headquarters of the "big formation", in this case the Egyptian Expeditionary Force. (Whether administered by (i) the Adjutant General branch or by (ii) the Quarter Master General branch of the General Staff I do not know but would imagine other forum members can advise further.) The records being kept for locally hired staff, on a pro-tem basis, would have facilitated the creation of a medal roll for those men who served. 

For these men, like the Chinese Labour Corps or Egyptian Labour Corps, it seems highly unlikely that anything other than medal roll documentation has survived. I can imagine it was destroyed upon disbandment of the EEF.

A quick perusal of interpreter MICs seemed to contain some Italian surnames. This reminded me that there has been an Italian community in Egypt, and that some of them may have served as interpreters too.

[Eran Tearosh]

Thanks, Keith!

Of course, I wasn't asking for a lookup on Ancestry - I hoped that you had that list, and from there - something specific regarding Armenac Kemkemian ...

That link you sent is fascinating! However, unfortunately, Armenac Kemkemian is not mentioned. 

I'm trying to assist the CWGC regarding the ELC (Egyptian Labour Corps) deads & burials here, so I'm fully aware that all or most files were destroyed. Still, this is a slightly different case, so I had/have hopes...

Eran

[stevenbecker]

What is given by Keith is also interest as only one man is mentioned as being "Guilds"

Possibly also Armenians

SOUVALIAN    Stephan    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att NZMB to hosp 5-17
KlIJIAN     Ardache     N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter AASC Anzac MDT to Eastern Force HQ 5-17

Most of those I have are Egyptian names, but no details on any of them in AIF records, other then the war Diaries.

That's why I believed they were recruited via the Egyptian Army rather then a British formation like the Corps of Interpreters

S.B

[MaureenE]

I have never heard of the Corps of Guides and Interpreters, Indian Army although there was a regiment called the Corps of Guides, often referred to as Guides for short.

There is a "History of the Guides" available on HathiTrust which I can see full view, don't know the viewing access elsewhere. https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/006256407 It seems various Battalions were in Egypt/Palestine during WW1.  I wonder somehow there had been a mix-up by CWGC somewhere along the line.

There is a London based society called the Levantine Heritage Foundation http://levantineheritage.com  The description says

"The Levantine Heritage Foundation (LHF) promotes the research, preservation and education of the heritage, arts and culture of the communities of the Levant region encompassed by the former Ottoman Empire between the 17th and 20th centuries. The peoples and communities who traded and settled in the area were diverse in origin and faiths, including Venetians, Genoese, Greeks, Turks, Persians, Armenians, Jews, French, Italians, British, many other Europeans and Americans".

I wonder whether this society could assist in any way.

Maureen

[Keith_history_buff]

There is a miscellany of units covered by the box of medal rolls at Kew, with archive reference WO 329/2340

 

• WO 329/2340 Royal Malta Artillery: medal rolls COL/106B (Pages 2-6). COL/106A (Page 1A). British War Medal and Victory Medal [Colonial Units].
  Details
• WO 329/2340 0King's Own Malta Regiment: medal rolls COL/101B; COL/101B2 (Pages 1-4). COL/101A; COL/101A2 (Pages 1A-23A); COL/102B (Pages 1-3). COL/102A (Pages...
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Maltese Labour Corps: medal rolls MLC/101B. Pages 1-2. British War Medal and Victory Medal [Colonial Units].
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Hong Kong Royal Garrison Artillery: medal rolls COL/166B; COL/166B2 (Pages 1-12). COL/166B2 (Pages 1-40). British War Medal and Victory Medal...
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Singapore Royal Garrison Artillery: medal rolls COL/166A (Pages 1A-10A). COL/166A2 (Pages 1A-7A). COL/166A3 (Pages 1A-10A). British War Medal and...
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Ceylon Garrison Artillery: medal rolls COL/167B. Pages 1-2. British War Medal and Victory Medal [Colonial Units].
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Ceylon Planter's Rifle Corps: medal rolls COL/170B. Pages 1-5. British War Medal and Victory Medal [Colonial Units].
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Ceylon Sanitary Company: medal rolls COL/125B (Page 1). COL/125 (Pages 1-10). British War Medal and Victory Medal [Colonial Units].
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Egyptian Military Police: medal rolls COL/175B (Pages 1-40). COL/175A (Pages 1A-20A). British War Medal and Victory Medal [Colonial Units].
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Medical Services (Egyptian Expeditionary Force): medal rolls COL/126B (Pages 1-10). COL/126A (Pages 1A-8A). British War Medal and Victory Medal...
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Camel Corps, Police Force Frontier District and Coast Guard: medal rolls COL/171B. Pages 1-28. British War Medal and Victory Medal [Colonial Units].
  Details
• WO 329/2340 Egyptian Miscellaneous: medal rolls COL/182B; COL/127B; INTP/102B. Pages 1-7. British War Medal and Victory Medal [Colonial Units].
  Details

 

 The Armenian interpreter J Benlian who appears on the first page of the roll is a good example. Unfortunately, Ancestry do struggle with these multi-unit rolls, so these men are implied as having served in the Royal Malta Artillery.



 

[Keith_history_buff]

  

On 06/07/2019 at 21:32, Keith_history_buff said:

During the First World War, locally employed persons were used as interpreters.

Local interpreters in Egypt and Palestine appear in the medal roll WO 329/2340, Egyptian HQ
Images 354 to 417 inclusive (of 424) of this medal roll (via Ancestry) list various names, Taranto, M being the first.

Local interpreters used at the Dardanelles and Salonika ...

There are a number of interpreters from the campaigns in Africa...
 

On a fair use basis, which is therefore 'Not to use significant portions of Ancestry Content' I have reproduced the first page of the medal roll.
This record can be accessed via Ancestry.
I accessed this courtesy of, and copyright of, Ancestry, from their WO 329 records. 
By downloading the image, as opposed to using a screenshot, there was no watermark. This is therefore also in keeping with clause 2.2 which requests 'Not to remove any copyright or other proprietary notices on any Ancestry Content;

'
© 1997-2023 Ancestry.com

 

[Eran Tearosh]

First, thank you all (Steve, Keith & Maureen) for the help so far. As you'll see in a minute, it gets even more complicated…

Before I go into that, let's summarize what we know so far:

In CWGC records we find a Corps of Guides and Interpreters, Indian Army, that we never heard about before, and seems not to be recorded anywhere else (So far…). In their records, there are 4 dead listed under this 'unit' - 2 in Egypt, 1 in Mudros (Greece), and 1 in Palestine (Beersheba). By their names, two of these are definitely Armenian, yet they are recorded as Indians, as the unit is recognized as such.

Keith pointed out that there were a few Armenians that served in EEF, and Steve added at least two more Armenian (Yes Steve – definitely Armenian) interpreters. We don't know yet who recruited these interpreters and who was in charge of their attachments to the various units. Steve thinks it might be through the Egyptian Army, and that might be the case regarding the recruitment part, but that's just a guess. Keith points towards The EEF HQ, and that makes sense regarding the deployment of the interpreters (Interesting challenge to try to find records about this in EEF's HQ files, if they survived). Still, just guesses.  

___________________

Maureen – I know The Guides very well; they were infantry battalions here, and I couldn't find any connection between The Guides and Interpreters. The 1^st Battalion was here all 1918 and the new 2^nd Battalion joined in quite late, just before the Megiddo Campaign. A couple of years ago I spent quite some time studying in the field the event known as The Action of Arsuf or The Action of the Sisters (8/6/1918). Unfortunately, the pocket maps of The Guides book are not scanned. My main interest would be the specific map titled Palestine, 1918, and Action of the Sisters, 8/6/18. Any chance you or anyone else could help me with that? (I have the map from the Black Watch's book of the same event. They were operating to the left of The Guides).

Never heard about the LHF! I'll try to approach them.

____________________

I decided to try to look at the interpreter issue from a different angle – This time I searched the CWGC records for Israel & Gaza Strip using 'interpreter' as a rank. Two results came up: Armenac KEMKEMIAN in Beersheba and one, J. M. ATTIRGI, buried in Jerusalem and commemorated in Ramleh.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2000657/j-m-attirgi/

Very interesting. Lots of details I'll try to check here, using some local Greek-Orthodox contacts. For our discussion, note his original unit: Queen Victoria's Own Corps of Guides Cavalry (F.F.) (Lumsden's). Attached to Staffordshire Yeomanry. Service number: KL/758 (Armenac KEMKEMIAN has no Service Number). Looking into finer details I found this (note the Regiment name):

 

Is this the missing link? Is the Q.V.O. Corps of Guides (Cavalry) the unit we're looking for? I'm not sure. First, as far as I thought I know, this unit was never in the Palestine front and I can't find them in any list (Including no reference I found in The History of The Guides). Second - still, CWGC records show 3 dead (A Naik & a Sepoy of the 1^st Battalion, both buried in Ramleh + ATTRIGI in Jerusalem). Third, it seems that even if a part of the Q.V.O. Corps of Guides (Cavalry) made it here, and even if that's the source of that 'Corps of Guides & Interpreters' mistake – They could not have been here before early 1918, which means that this is maybe a part of the answer, but not the full one, as Armenac KEMKEMIAN was killed in 1917.

Love it when it gets complicated…

Eran

Edited 29 July , 2023 by Eran Tearosh

[Eran Tearosh]

3 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

  

On a fair use basis, which is therefore 'Not to use significant portions of Ancestry Content' I have reproduced the first page of the medal roll.
This record can be accessed via Ancestry.
I accessed this courtesy of, and copyright of, Ancestry, from their WO 329 records. 
By downloading the image, as opposed to using a screenshot, there was no watermark. This is therefore also in keeping with clause 2.2 which requests 'Not to remove any copyright or other proprietary notices on any Ancestry Content;

'
© 1997-2023 Ancestry.com

 

 

Thank you Keith!!

 

Gives an idea of what's there.

Is Armenac KEMKEMIAN mentioned there? (From what you wrote before, I'm not sure)

Of course, I won't use this!!!

Eran

[charlie962]

A couple of postwar clippings from Findmypast newspapers: (all I could find?)

Espionage service perhaps suits the journalist. A number of the interpreters, typically with service numbers beginning KL, were attached to infantry units for more straightforward duties I think.

 

One of those old threads on the forum suggests a member has more background info on the organisation? 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/110853-interpreter-corps/#comment-1054574

 

Edited 29 July , 2023 by charlie962

[michaeldr]

For what it's worth, The Advance of the E. E. F. etc etc OoB gives, under GHQ Troops, on p.2,
Miscellaneous: Corps of Guides and Interpreters
see http://www.314th.org/Nafziger-Collection-of-Orders-of-Battle/917BGPA.pdf 
If you have the (re)printed version on your bookshelf, then it's on p.39

[Keith_history_buff]

18 hours ago, Eran Tearosh said:

Thanks, Keith!

Of course, I wasn't asking for a lookup on Ancestry - I hoped that you had that list, and from there - something specific regarding Armenac Kemkemian ...

That link you sent is fascinating! However, unfortunately, Armenac Kemkemian is not mentioned....... 

Hello again Eran,

I just wanted to go back to this for two reasons.

Firstly, I believe that you thought I had taken an interest in the locally hired interpreters of the EEF, and that my interest was so great, that I downloaded the details of the roll, the names etc. To this end, you asked if I was able to share this. My interest in July 2019 was limited to finding where the roll started, and where it ended.

For completeness, below is the corresponding medal index card for J Benlian. Whilst it had been my misunderstanding that his entitlement was BWM only, the medal roll (WO 329/2340) and the medal index card (reference WO 372/2/96473) document his entitlement to both BWM and Victory Medal too.

Medal index card below, © 1997-2023 Ancestry.com

It may seem like I went overboard earlier, but I did want to prove, chapter and verse, that the limited sharing of documents on this particular thread is indeed within the terms and conditions of Ancestry and of the forum. I am a contributor to FMP, and whilst I do not make any financial gain, it is important that the mechanism of FMP and Ancestry as sustainable businesses which provide new sources of genealogical research data, is able to continue in this manner.

Secondly, when I performed a global search on Ancestry for Armenac Kemkemian, the only result was the link to his profile on FindAGrave.

1 hour ago, Eran Tearosh said:

Is Armenac KEMKEMIAN mentioned there? (From what you wrote before, I'm not sure)

Of course, I won't use this!!!

Eran

Oops I posted the comment too soon. So in answer to your question above

 

Quote

when I performed a global search on Ancestry for Armenac Kemkemian, the only result was the link to his profile on FindAGrave.

 

[Keith_history_buff]

I've added all that I can, so will stop here, as all I can "contribute" is a repeat of what I have already posted.

[stevenbecker]

Since we are still throwing names, heres what I have on them, some we have been mention?

ATTAR    Joseph    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter
BARSOUM    Aziz    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 22 Mtd Bde to hosp 5-17
BOUSTANY    NK    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    to interpreter 03 LHR 
CASPAR    Gobrial    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter 1 LH Bde HQ to 1 LH Bde Trn 12-14
CHAVOOSHIAN    K    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter att RHQ/04 LHR 5-15
DOUMMAR    J    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptain Army     interpreter att RHQ/04 LHR 1-15 transfered 4-15 
FREIJAH    Jamiel    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde HQ 12-14 accident shot Pte Alt 5-10-18 AKA Frejah
GIRGAS    Isaac    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    to Interpreter ASqn/01 LHR 1-16
GOBRIAL    Caspar    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde Trn 12-14
HABIB    Elias    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter 2 LH Bde HQ 5-15 att 02 LHR 5-15 
HAFEZ    Mohamed    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter 9 LHR 1917-18 shown in war diary 9-18 
HANNA    Milhail or Mikhail    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    to Interpreter BSqn/01 LHR 1-16
HANNA    Nasti    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 10 LHR 1-18 
HENEIN    Emile E.    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter att RHQ/01 LHR 1-16 to C Sqn 2-16 
IBRAHIM effendi    Laleh    N/R    youbashi     Egyptian Army    interpreter Aust MDT 8-17 att DMC HQ 8-17
JAPHET    A    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army buried Alexandria Chatby Military and War Memorial Cemetery
KEMKEMIAN    Armenac    N/R    interpreter    Egyptian Army    (Armenian) Interpreter Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army att 2 LH Bde HQ supply sect reported killed by bomb in air attack at Shellal buried Beersheba War Cemetery Palestine 
KlIJIAN     Ardache     N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter (Armenian) AASC Anzac MDT to Eastern Force HQ 5-17
KNEZEVITCH    Nichilas    N/R    N/R    N/R    to 1 LH Bde HQ (in AIF nom roll) possibly interpreter (not identified)
KOUYOUMIJIAN    A    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army buried Alexandria Chatby Military and War Memorial Cemetery
LOIZO    V    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter att RHQ/04 LHR 2-15 att B Sqn 4-15 disch 5-15 
SOUVALIAN    Stephan    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter (Armenian) att NZMB to hosp 5-17
ILLINGWORTH    Ernest    463    Cpl    02 LHR    C Sqn att Interpreter Mule Transport Corps 9-15 evac to (1 AGH) hosp Egypt (ague) 9-15 (G) rtn 12-15 att WFF 1-16 to 4 Div Arty 5-16 to AATD UK 6-16 to T/Sgt AGBD Etaples 9-16 to Cpl 5 DAC 11-16 to 12 BAC 1-17 to 3 BAC 3-17 to 2 sect/1 DAC 7-17 reduced to Gnr 12-17 att 1Co AASC 1 Div Trn 1-18 rtn 8-18 F&B RTA 1914 leave (British 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards 12 years) Ex RAN (2786) 1-4-13 to HMAS "Warrego" disch 18-10-13
KELEDJIAN    A    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter (Armenian) att NZMB
BOTROS    Zaky    500    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    ELC interpreter at Kantara att 32Co AASC Anzac MDT
MANSOURY    Abdul Hamid el     N/R    Dvr     Egyptian Army    interpreter att RHQ/04 LHR 8-17
MOHAMED    Hafez    N/R    Dvr     Egyptian Army    interpreter att 9 LHR
NAKASHIAN    Artin S.    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Tos Interpreter RHQ/05 LHR 6-18 
SALEH Effendi    Ibrahem     N/R    Youbashi    Egyptian Army    interpreter Aust MDT 8-17
SAMMAL    N/R    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter RHQ/1 LHR to interpreter NZMB 7-18 shown in War Diary
TEWFIK    Zeibak    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde 12-14 
YAZIGI    Abdu    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde 1918 disch 12-18
ZEIBAK    Tewfik    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter 1 LH Bde HQ 12-14
ZELONKA    SH    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    att Interpreter RHQ/11 LHR to disch 12-18 (War diary) 
STEPHAN    M    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army buried Cairo War Memorial Cemetery 
MOHAMED    Ali Said    220    Dvr     Egyptian Army    interpreter 4 LH Bde HQ att RHQ/04 LHR 10-17
 

S.B

[Eran Tearosh]

On 29/07/2023 at 21:31, Keith_history_buff said:

I've added all that I can, so will stop here, as all I can "contribute" is a repeat of what I have already posted.

Keith!

Thank you for everything! Maybe I should add a few words to explain why I'm so 'in' to this Armenian person and into Armenians in the Palestine Campaign in general:

One of the goals of my work here is to try to promote interest and proper commemoration of the many nations that were involved in the campaign here. I'm especially fascinated and interested in the smaller and less-known contingents that were a part of the campaign. It's a long process that takes years and this is not the place to go through all these activities - some with more successful results and some less, at least at this stage...

The Armenians are very unique - in general, and for me personally. In 2018 I managed to convince the Jerusalem Patriarchate and community to hold a moving event to commemorate the centennial of The Battle of Arara, where the Legion de Orient fought courageously, under the French Flag (But as a part of the EEF), as a part of the opening stages of the Megiddo Campaign. The fallen were buried at the battlefield, and in 1925 were moved to the Armenian Cemetery of Mount Zion, where an Obelisk was erected, and that is where we started the 2018 event. Last year I managed to bring representatives of the Armenian Embassy & Jerusalem Patriarchate to the Ramleh Cemetery Remembrance Sunday ceremony - I found there a few Armenian graves, unknown to the Armenians till that day. Their faces told the whole story:

Same thing when I informed them of the name of Armenac KEMKEMIAN. 

There's a new Armenian Museum (Beautiful!) that opened in the Armenian Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. At the moment, the Legion de Orient and the Armenian contribution to the Palestine Campaign are not presented well enough and I'm working with the Museum to put things right. 

In light of this, I think you'll understand why I was maybe a bit too 'pushy'. Please accept my apologies.

 

Thanks again!

Eran

 

Edited 2 August , 2023 by Eran Tearosh

[Eran Tearosh]

4 hours ago, michaeldr said:

For what it's worth, The Advance of the E. E. F. etc etc OoB gives, under GHQ Troops, on p.2,
Miscellaneous: Corps of Guides and Interpreters
see http://www.314th.org/Nafziger-Collection-of-Orders-of-Battle/917BGPA.pdf 
If you have the (re)printed version on your bookshelf, then it's on p.39

Michael

Thank you! I went twice through The Advance of the E.E.F. and missed it! (By the way - you'll find it on the net also at Archive.org)

Of course, this changes a lot. To begin with - CWGC records are right on this matter. The big challenge now will be to try to find more details about this unit, especially if there are records - recruitment details, War Diaries, etc. 

Eran

[Eran Tearosh]

59 minutes ago, stevenbecker said:

Since we are still throwing names, heres what I have on them, some we have been mention?

ATTAR    Joseph    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter
BARSOUM    Aziz    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 22 Mtd Bde to hosp 5-17
BOUSTANY    NK    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    to interpreter 03 LHR 
CASPAR    Gobrial    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter 1 LH Bde HQ to 1 LH Bde Trn 12-14
CHAVOOSHIAN    K    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter att RHQ/04 LHR 5-15
DOUMMAR    J    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptain Army     interpreter att RHQ/04 LHR 1-15 transfered 4-15 
FREIJAH    Jamiel    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde HQ 12-14 accident shot Pte Alt 5-10-18 AKA Frejah
GIRGAS    Isaac    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    to Interpreter ASqn/01 LHR 1-16
GOBRIAL    Caspar    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde Trn 12-14
HABIB    Elias    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter 2 LH Bde HQ 5-15 att 02 LHR 5-15 
HAFEZ    Mohamed    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter 9 LHR 1917-18 shown in war diary 9-18 
HANNA    Milhail or Mikhail    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    to Interpreter BSqn/01 LHR 1-16
HANNA    Nasti    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 10 LHR 1-18 
HENEIN    Emile E.    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter att RHQ/01 LHR 1-16 to C Sqn 2-16 
IBRAHIM effendi    Laleh    N/R    youbashi     Egyptian Army    interpreter Aust MDT 8-17 att DMC HQ 8-17
JAPHET    A    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army buried Alexandria Chatby Military and War Memorial Cemetery
KEMKEMIAN    Armenac    N/R    interpreter    Egyptian Army    (Armenian) Interpreter Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army att 2 LH Bde HQ supply sect reported killed by bomb in air attack at Shellal buried Beersheba War Cemetery Palestine 
KlIJIAN     Ardache     N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter (Armenian) AASC Anzac MDT to Eastern Force HQ 5-17
KNEZEVITCH    Nichilas    N/R    N/R    N/R    to 1 LH Bde HQ (in AIF nom roll) possibly interpreter (not identified)
KOUYOUMIJIAN    A    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army buried Alexandria Chatby Military and War Memorial Cemetery
LOIZO    V    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter att RHQ/04 LHR 2-15 att B Sqn 4-15 disch 5-15 
SOUVALIAN    Stephan    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter (Armenian) att NZMB to hosp 5-17
ILLINGWORTH    Ernest    463    Cpl    02 LHR    C Sqn att Interpreter Mule Transport Corps 9-15 evac to (1 AGH) hosp Egypt (ague) 9-15 (G) rtn 12-15 att WFF 1-16 to 4 Div Arty 5-16 to AATD UK 6-16 to T/Sgt AGBD Etaples 9-16 to Cpl 5 DAC 11-16 to 12 BAC 1-17 to 3 BAC 3-17 to 2 sect/1 DAC 7-17 reduced to Gnr 12-17 att 1Co AASC 1 Div Trn 1-18 rtn 8-18 F&B RTA 1914 leave (British 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards 12 years) Ex RAN (2786) 1-4-13 to HMAS "Warrego" disch 18-10-13
KELEDJIAN    A    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter (Armenian) att NZMB
BOTROS    Zaky    500    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    ELC interpreter at Kantara att 32Co AASC Anzac MDT
MANSOURY    Abdul Hamid el     N/R    Dvr     Egyptian Army    interpreter att RHQ/04 LHR 8-17
MOHAMED    Hafez    N/R    Dvr     Egyptian Army    interpreter att 9 LHR
NAKASHIAN    Artin S.    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Tos Interpreter RHQ/05 LHR 6-18 
SALEH Effendi    Ibrahem     N/R    Youbashi    Egyptian Army    interpreter Aust MDT 8-17
SAMMAL    N/R    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter RHQ/1 LHR to interpreter NZMB 7-18 shown in War Diary
TEWFIK    Zeibak    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde 12-14 
YAZIGI    Abdu    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter att 1 LH Bde 1918 disch 12-18
ZEIBAK    Tewfik    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    interpreter 1 LH Bde HQ 12-14
ZELONKA    SH    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    att Interpreter RHQ/11 LHR to disch 12-18 (War diary) 
STEPHAN    M    N/R    Interpreter    Egyptian Army    Interpreter Corps of Guides and Interpreters Indian Army buried Cairo War Memorial Cemetery 
MOHAMED    Ali Said    220    Dvr     Egyptian Army    interpreter 4 LH Bde HQ att RHQ/04 LHR 10-17
 

S.B

Thank you Steve!

Is the reference to the Egyptian Army yours, or is it taken from a different source?

I'll try to go name by name over ten next couple of days. By first glimpse, quite a mixture of Arabs and Armenians, plus a few others. 

Eran

[Eran Tearosh]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

A couple of postwar clippings from Findmypast newspapers: (all I could find?)

Espionage service perhaps suits the journalist. A number of the interpreters, typically with service numbers beginning KL, were attached to infantry units for more straightforward duties I think.

 

One of those old threads on the forum suggests a member has more background info on the organisation? 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/110853-interpreter-corps/#comment-1054574

 

Great find Charlie!

Would be fun to read the reasons for the names of the donkeys...

About Green_Acorn - yes, I noted his remark. I'll try to PM him. 

Also, I'll try to contact Prof. Yigal Sheffy - He wrote a book about British intelligence in this region during the Great War. 

Many thanks!

Eran

Edited 29 July , 2023 by Eran Tearosh