Having asked the Question on Sir Arnold Wilson MP

[Matlock1418]

48 minutes ago, Neil B said:

JC ....19 years in Trg he must have been trained so well it's a wonder how he made it to France as this made him 1 year old :-)

 Not a well constructed post by me! 

19 y old - 18 y and 6 months training seems to spring to mind to allow for 18y 6m in 1918, iirc [which isn't that certain these days!]

M

Edited 12 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
clarify I hope

[Neil B]

Ok best transfer to the pioneers for extra construction :-) As I wrote 10 weeks in my time as there were extra weapons to contend with Viz spear, net & shield.

6 months seem unlikely, so maybe 6 weeks or more could be a starter? He went as a stretcher bearer to start with & I think he may have been in the P&D's one of the roles for these men. But speculating only muddies the water. Thanks for your input, any else on the time trg would be of great assistance before it goes cold & am carried away on a stretcher :-)

 

[Matlock1418]

30 minutes ago, Neil B said:

6 months seem unlikely, so maybe 6 weeks or more could be a starter?

Remember that conscripted young men could be called up at 18y [and many were, on or very shortly after, their birthday], so 18y plus 6 months and you get 18y 6m for deployment. [iirc - fortunately I seem to have for 1918 - see LLT:  https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army]

Previously officially men should have been aged 19y to be deployed. 

Some men got considerably less training, especially earlier in the war - many of the early RE tunnellers only got barely enough time to draw a uniform before they were digging in F&F and some useful trades [like those with veterinary experience and/or of handling horses etc.] little more - but I digress and this doesn't help with your chap, McISAAC.

M

Edited 12 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[Neil B]

No your helping, but he wasn't a conscript but a volunteer into the TF.

 

[Neil B]

On 10/07/2023 at 10:39, Matlock1418 said:

As Duncan McISAAC, 3492/301303, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders died 2-5-1918 there should be a Register of Soldiers Effects entry [Usually available at Ancestry] - this is likely to show his War Gratuity and  another member(s) should be able to back calculate from the WG due at date of death to give a month of enlistment [sorry I can't accesss and anyway I'm really poor at back calculating!]

Further edit: Apologies all, as pointed out below [I had missed the earlier post ] - Acknown seems to have already found it "According to the War Gratuity Calculator at: https://wargratuity.uk/membership-login/, his war gratuity of £11 indicates enlistment in the month from 03 November 1915."

M

Edit: Dependant's pension index card at WFA/Fold3 shows he Died of Wounds 2-5-18 and his mother, Mrs Mrs Margaret Whiteford McISAAC, 10 Lady Mary Row, Campbeltown, got a weekly pension of 12/6 from 26.11.18 - not uncommon to get the pension six months after death if a Separation Allowance was already being paid/in the interim.

Soldiers effects....... I haven't seen this card before?

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, Neil B said:

Soldiers effects....... I haven't seen this card before?

It's not a card but a listed entry on a page in a register - at Ancestry I believe [I don't have access]

M

Edited 12 July , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Neil B]

Maybe some one reading has?

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Neil B said:

Maybe some one reading has?

They surely have!

M

[Neil B]

Well I live in hope they'll get on parade? "As I'm old & frail and run for the post, so give him a Shilling or something close. Rudyard Kip...from his barrack room ballads. :-)

[Neil B]

Fall in A-fall in B-fall in all the Coy's. I really need you experts on here to get involved please. From the photo shot somewhere in the gas cloud above reads.....#3648  (12 oct 15)      #3544 (5 Nov 15) somewhere between is #3492 possibly (1st November 15) I need from theA&SH  museum, the war diaries showing entry of reinforcements. Also mentioned was the RE Tunneler's having no time to catch breath after enlisting to end up in France, could be the case with him as a stretcher bearer? Even so there is still a chance he was there before 31-12 -15. What say you all?

[mancpal]

Neil,

aren’t the A&S war diaries available free of charge from The National Archives? If so then it should be relatively easy to track back from date of death to see when drafts of fresh drafts were received. I can’t remember if it’s been mentioned already but if you find soldiers with close service numbers and surviving service records it may indicate when a batch of reinforcements joined with their unit in theatre.

Simon

[CorporalPunishment]

35 minutes ago, Neil B said:

Fall in A-fall in B-fall in all the Coy's. I really need you experts on here to get involved please. From the photo shot somewhere in the gas cloud above reads.....#3648  (12 oct 15)      #3544 (5 Nov 15) somewhere between is #3492 possibly (1st November 15) I need from theA&SH  museum, the war diaries showing entry of reinforcements. Also mentioned was the RE Tunneler's having no time to catch breath after enlisting to end up in France, could be the case with him as a stretcher bearer? Even so there is still a chance he was there before 31-12 -15. What say you all?

You are clearly desperate to pin a 1914-1915 Star on Private McIsaacs and I don't think that will ever happen. On the grounds of his age and enlistment date there is no way, by reason of the known facts, that he would have entered a theatre of war before early 1916 in my opinion.     Pete.

 

 

[Neil B]

I am not offay with how to get onto these links as every time I try it comes back.... Nothing Found. I'm offering a tin of bully beef (but no opener) to any one helping....Back, back don't all rush in :-)

[DavidOwen]

The war diaries for the battalions of the Argyll & Sutherland should be here Search results: battalion argyll sutherland diary | The National Archives

[Neil B]

3 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

You are clearly desperate to pin a 1914-1915 Star on Private McIsaacs and I don't think that will ever happen. On the grounds of his age and enlistment date there is no way, by reason of the known facts, that he would have entered a theatre of war before early 1916 in my opinion.     Pete.

 

 

Yes I am desperate & my experience with the medal office over my father & other uncle WW2 medals tell me that we all mistakes & only getting proof does it produce the goods in the end, but this anther story which I won't bog the forum with. Your opinion is valued.

See the start of the thread titled Sir Arnold Wilson MP & if you wish to contact me via FB please do so?

[Neil B]

20 minutes ago, mancpal said:

Neil,

aren’t the A&S war diaries available free of charge from The National Archives? If so then it should be relatively easy to track back from date of death to see when drafts of fresh drafts were received. I can’t remember if it’s been mentioned already but if you find soldiers with close service numbers and surviving service records it may indicate when a batch of reinforcements joined with their unit in theatre.

Simon

I'm hoping that the museum will come back to me having eMailed them with specific dates.... as yet NO reply :-(

[CorporalPunishment]

10 minutes ago, Neil B said:

Yes I am desperate & my experience with the medal office over my father & other uncle WW2 medals tell me that we all mistakes & only getting proof does it produce the goods in the end, but this anther story which I won't bog the forum with. Your opinion is valued.

See the start of the thread titled Sir Arnold Wilson MP & if you wish to contact me via FB please do so?

Neil/Rudyard, good luck to you in your quest to find the truth.        Pete.

[Neil B]

2 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Neil/Rudyard, good luck to you in your quest to find the truth.        Pete.

Rudyard .... if only I was in his league I'd have cracked it by now. Just feel to make it more pleasurable for the readers to throw in his poems now & again is meant as a tribute & I hope they are "Hanging Danny Deever in the Morning" is not an omen for me! Thank you for wishing me to get to the bottom of the shell hole :-)

[mancpal]

Neil,

Waiting for the museum could be a long wait as opposed to following Davids advice, all you need to do is register with the NA which is free and go to the relevant diary and download which is also free. It only takes a couple of minutes. 
I’m sensing that you can’t accept the lack of a star and are hoping that someone may produce a miracle while you don’t seem to investigate the evidence generously given by other members. 
As I understand (though happy to accept if wrong) bandsmen, stretcher bearers etc would have completed infantry training prior to overseas service, this didn’t take 6 weeks at any point in the war. I quoted 2 family members experience , one volunteered in Jan 1915 and wasn’t deployed until November 1915 (10 MONTHS). The second conscripted in June 1916 and deployed January 1917 (7 MONTHS). You man falls between the 2 enlistment dates so 6 WEEKS is at best fanciful. 
Yes, there were men who served in France and Flanders with significantly shorter training, miners be one trade but bearing in mind they were underground and they would have been well experienced in their trade, they were as likely to hit by a sniper under F&F as the would be under Wigan though there were countless other dangers to be dealt with.
There are also cases of men in 1914 who owned their own motorcycle being “recruited from the street” and finding themselves in France a week or two later though these are rarity not the norm. 
I’m prepared to take my wager to whole new level, same Town Hall steps, dressed in a kilt and playing a slow lament on the pipes (baked bean powered) with the mouthpiece hanging out of my……….

Simon

[mancpal]

I don’t think you’ll need to travel anywhere in this case.

I thought about this particular soldier in a different way this evening. What if he did  ‘only’ receive two medals, who is to say his time at war was any less valuable than the man who arrived in theatre on the 31/12/15 thus receiving a star. 
I bet there are many instances of men who ‘only’ received a pair of campaign medals but distinguished themselves by earning a VC, DSO, DCM, MC or an MM in valiant circumstances, I bet few would quibble over a star. 
They all deserve remembrance.

Simon
 

[Neil B]

At least your now thinking in the evening over him now thankyou, I've been thinking of him from when reveille was blown and the alarm sounded 25 years plus 7 months ago! If I thought he won one of those you mention but not the star that would explain the tunic & as these dates extruded so far....not Rudyard Kipling but The Duke of Wellington, once wrote after Waterloo..... it was damn near thing.

I too have had been thinking out side the box for a different way on the DoEnl... for as this fellow that sent the screen shot is so exact about these other solders #s viz 3468 & 3544 why is it my uncle can't be dated? More later, keep covered but keep eating beans.

[mancpal]

I thought 6 digit service numbers came about with the renumbering of territorials in 1917 , not 1915.

Simon

[Neil B]

He mentions 1917 also but I think he has worked out backwards who got the new one's & when? 

[mancpal]

There’s a good section on the long long trail dealing with the re numbering of territorial  soldiers in 1917. I haven’t come across a six digit service number prior to then. In fact when my gf was conscripted it was 7 months after your man enlisted and he was issued with a five digit number.

Simon

[mancpal]

I’m seeing from the lower screenshot that 301300 was issued in 1915 according to your source.
You have had the week of his enlistment since almost the beginning of topic (w/c 3/11/15) based on the war gratuity calculator, you have had training periods explained, you have been told where to access war diaries free of charge with almost instant access. 
I and others have used their time and knowledge to attempt to help you. In return you suggest I may be sticking two fingers up at you which at best is both rude and ungrateful.
It seems you haven’t followed any advice, merely hoped that someone may discover your holy grail without you lifting a finger. 
Keep banging your head on a brick wall if you choose. 
Over and out.

Simon