Having asked the Question on Sir Arnold Wilson MP

[Neil B]

Maybe a breakthrough, maybe not? I asked a poster on another forum to enhance the image & waiting on to come back. Also another came up with his date of enlistment as 12 June 15 but is unable to scan the entry as she's broke or maybe she's scamming me I've asked her where was this info....again waiting & no sleep with the thunder & lightning ... "When the drums begin to roll, it's Tommy this & Tommy that" (RK :-)

Now in my day we had to do 10 weeks basic training & in his day even he had the same time training.... I think this would put him in FF before the end of 1915? Any comments in the hope of getting to the end of the "long, long trail", please. :-)

[Matlock1418]

On 06/07/2023 at 14:57, Neil B said:

his date of enlistment.

As Duncan McISAAC, 3492/301303, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders died 2-5-1918 there should be a Register of Soldiers Effects entry [Usually available at Ancestry] - this is likely to show his War Gratuity and  another member(s) should be able to back calculate from the WG due at date of death to give a month of enlistment [sorry I can't accesss and anyway I'm really poor at back calculating!]

Further edit: Apologies all, as pointed out below [I had missed the earlier post ] - Acknown seems to have already found it "According to the War Gratuity Calculator at: https://wargratuity.uk/membership-login/, his war gratuity of £11 indicates enlistment in the month from 03 November 1915."

M

Edit: Dependant's pension index card at WFA/Fold3 shows he Died of Wounds 2-5-18 and his mother, Mrs Mrs Margaret Whiteford McISAAC, 10 Lady Mary Row, Campbeltown, got a weekly pension of 12/6 from 26.11.18 - not uncommon to get the pension six months after death if a Separation Allowance was already being paid/in the interim.

Edited 12 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
further edit

[Matlock1418]

On 06/07/2023 at 14:57, Neil B said:

his date of enlistment.

Has anyone checked Soldiers Died in the Great War? [Usually available at Ancestry]

M

Edited 10 July , 2023 by Matlock1418

[knittinganddeath]

I've put the picture through a basic photo upscaler in case that helps. It would be better if the original pic were larger and scanned at a higher dpi, but there's also only so much that technology can do after a certain point.

[Michelle Young]

10 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Has anyone checked Soldiers Died in the Great War? [Available at Ancestry]

M

As far as I know, SDGW only has the place of enlistment, not the date. 

[Matlock1418]

On 10/07/2023 at 10:03, Michelle Young said:

As far as I know, SDGW only has the place of enlistment, not the date. 

Ah, yes.  We need that Soldier's Effects and War Gratuity to give us a ballpark month. [I'm reluctant to mention Craig as I think he is busy at work at the moment, at least that was the last report]

M

Edit: Apologies all, as pointed out below [I had missed the earlier post ] - Acknown seems to have already found it "According to the War Gratuity Calculator at: https://wargratuity.uk/membership-login/, his war gratuity of £11 indicates enlistment in the month from 03 November 1915."

Edited 11 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Matlock1418]

On 06/07/2023 at 14:57, Neil B said:

his date of enlistment

On 09/07/2023 at 06:40, Neil B said:

local paper cutting

Know you have found his report of death

Anyone found anything more specific and earlier in a local newspaper? [Usually available at BNA & FMP] enlistment might feature and/or award of a medal ???

M

[Matlock1418]

On 06/07/2023 at 14:57, Neil B said:

his date of enlistment

Anything seen in the National Roll of the Great War? [Available at FMP - got to admit my quick search didn't turn up anything]

M

Edit: Scottish National War Memorial doesn't help. https://www.snwm.org/roll-search/?id=1183479&searchid=24bb46a00b9e39e61bbd7f5c87a0aa13&page=1

Edited 10 July , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Neil B]

Thank you all for your input I'm busy back calculating at the moment. Does the enhanced pic help those who saw stripes on the ribbon?

[CorporalPunishment]

8 hours ago, Neil B said:

Thank you all for your input I'm busy back calculating at the moment. Does the enhanced pic help those who saw stripes on the ribbon?

The more I look at it the more I'm convinced it is not actually a medal ribbon at all. Instead of being above the pocket as per normal it is on the crest of the pocket flap which medal ribbons never are to my knowledge.     Pete.

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The more I look at it the more I'm convinced it is not actually a medal ribbon at all. Instead of being above the pocket as per normal it is on the crest of the pocket flap which medal ribbons never are to my knowledge. 

Certainly seems an unusual placement - though the recent enhancement does seem to show stripes [possibly wishful thinking/auto suggestion?]

I was wondering if there was something in the pocket which protruded through a slit in the pocket flap's seam [There seems to be some sort of distortion there] ???

M

[CorporalPunishment]

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Certainly seems an unusual placement - though the recent enhancement does seem to show stripes [possibly wishful thinking/auto suggestion?]

I was wondering if there was something in the pocket which protruded through a slit in the pocket flap's seam [There seems to be some sort of distortion there] ???

M

I'm more inclined to think it's something like a fund-raising badge or the like that he's had pinned on him. I imagine having something poking through a slit in his pocket flap would not go down too well with his superiors.       Pete.

[Matlock1418]

Just now, CorporalPunishment said:

I'm more inclined to think it's something like a fund-raising badge or the like that he's had pinned on him. I imagine having something poking through a slit in his pocket flap would not go down too well with his superiors.

I know  but just offering what it rather looked like to me = a puzzle.

M

[CorporalPunishment]

3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I know  but just offering what it rather looked like to me = a puzzle.

M

Yes, it's certainly a puzzle alright.       Pete.

[TullochArd]

1 hour ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The more I look at it the more I'm convinced it is not actually a medal ribbon at all. Instead of being above the pocket as per normal it is on the crest of the pocket flap which medal ribbons never are to my knowledge.     Pete.

I'm also of that opinion Pete.

[Matlock1418]

It's certainly not an Imperial Service Badge - so that's one badge ruled out!

M

[mancpal]

I agree ( based on enhanced photo) that it’s probably not a medal ribbon, I fully see the suggestion of it being something protruding through the pocket flap (a six inch rule would have been my guess) based on the shadows though as mentioned above that wouldn’t satisfy regulations . 
Forum  member Acknown suggested early on in this thread, based on the the war gratuity calculator a date of enlistment of w/c 3rd November 1915. Whilst training time did shorten during the war I think it impossible that he reached F&F in 1915. A relative of mine was conscripted in mid 1916 and after training reached France mid January 1917 (so 6mths training at that stage in the war). My grandad volunteered in Jan 1915 and went to France 10 months later.
Your forebears age at death is stated as 20yrs old, officially he couldn’t serve abroad until he was 18yrs 6mths so the newspaper suggesting 2yrs 2mths at the front doesn’t add up. Artistic journalism springs to mind. 
His medal roll index card shows (as I mentioned early on) his entitlement to the BWM & VM. No mention of a star or “Date of Entry” whatsoever. The date of entry into a theatre of war is almost always present to qualify the award of a star. 
I may be being premature but if this soldier got a star I’ll show my bare bottom on the Town Hall steps!

Simon

[Neil B]

The woman who gave me the  date for his enlistment, states the 12 June 15. Working on this 10 week trg period probably shorter back then & if anyone knows that would be handy also? I'm using all the dates I have to try & place him there & have the war diaries of the Bn which might show a draft which if the dates tally is the answer. 

[TullochArd]

10 hours ago, mancpal said:

"Your forebears age at death is stated as 20yrs old, officially he couldn’t serve abroad until he was 18yrs 6mths so the newspaper suggesting 2yrs 2mths at the front doesn’t add up. Artistic journalism springs to mind" ........."I may be being premature but if this soldier got a star I’ll show my bare bottom on the Town Hall steps!"

I've struggled find an exact DoB but  I'm not so sure that 2 years and 2 months quoted is a certainty for simple artistic journalism. There is another possibility.  To me it smacks of a considered reported fact from a family source.  If this were the case then 2 years and 2 months would pan out as follows:  Date of death: 2 May 1918.  Date of entry into Theatre: 2 Mar 1916-ish.  

Either way it comes to the same conclusion that a 14/15 Star seems unlikely ....... and thankfully saves us all from the terrible possibility of Simon carrying out his threat.

 

[Neil B]

Not yet on the bottom, here is written in Pt orders that he was posted to the 10 Bn  Entrenching Bn  on 30- 4- 16 & back to his own 13-5-16 along with very close numbers to his such as  3422 W. Bowker, 3421. J. Stokes, 3495 A. McCallum,, 3501 W.McAskill along with 32 others in total  with older number's to his 3429. & these four. His DOB was 1-12. 97 but you probably mean DOEnl.?

[Neil B]

Just  received this the spelling is sometimes vague however it can be worked out? Now please advise me.

[mancpal]

So Acknowns suggestion early on of enlistment in the week commencing 3/11/15 looks pretty good then. 
Looks likely my rump will remain clad.

Simon

 

[Neil B]

Not yet Simon, we have to get this DOL date exact & then find out how many weeks trg were given? I've asked the Argyll's museum if they could send specific war diary dates & could they say how long was a man under trg before joining the Bn. But as they never got back on an earlier one I won't hold my breath, maybe if they read this forum they will oblige?

As for obligation....I must now wait before I book Ryan Air for your strip(es) parade as I would still be holding my breath to see if the Mayor gets you taken away for causing an affray! Writing that I must return to the fray before this dies anther death & become a cold case again!

So with  all of you involved on this thread, can I ask you again for action stations & lob in what you think.... please? If I succeed then the drinks are on me at the TOC H club :-)

[Matlock1418]

On 11/07/2023 at 08:30, mancpal said:

officially he couldn’t serve abroad until he was 18yrs 6mths

I think that age was just a temporary arrangement during the crisis c. March/April1918 - and they had to have a minimum amount of training under their belt = I think19 years was the norm before that [certainly my GF was 19 before they sent him out earlier in 1918]

M

Edited 12 July , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Neil B]

JC ....19 years in Trg he must have been trained so well it's a wonder how he made it to France as this made him 1 year old :-)