Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Uniform and Badge Question

[Allan1892]

Thank you for re-posting the photograph and the notation on the reverse.

[KizmeRD]

Unfortunately there is no date on the reverse of the photo, so it is still a big assumption that this is a wedding photo from 1916.

Also since the writing refers to ‘Great Gran and Grandad’, it’s clearly not contemporary.

MB

[Allan1892]

@Muddywheels -- although the article via the link below doesn't shed any light on James' service, it does give an insight to the Paulin family from Burnmouth.

By clicking on NEXT in this forum you will find a Paulin family tree (community-council.org.uk)

 

[horatio2]

I sympathise with your desire to pin down the James PAULIN naval service and, at the end of the day, you must come to your own conclusions about the evidence presented here. I would just conclude with a few observations:

You state “In October 1923 he also received RNR Medal…” but you offer no evidence for this although noting, correctly, that the RNR record has no evidence of this. I assume you mean the Reserve Long Service and Good Conduct (LS&GC) Medal. This was awarded after 15 years Reserve service so, based on his RNR entry date he would qualify in 1932. There is not a hint of long service.

There is still your suggestion of ‘missing’ pre-1917 records. This is not impossible but highly unlikely as the Admiralty records are amazingly complete (compared with army records). In addition, it is most unlikely that he had the previous service as an “RNMBR Skipper” that is needed for your story. I should remind you that the RNMBR was part of the RNVR and, as @KizmeRD    has pointed out, “Skipper” was an RNR rank. Boats of the RNMBR did not have RNR skippers. They were generally commanded by junior officers of (mainly) the RNVR, often Midshipmen and Sub Lieutenants. Moreover, it is most unlikely that, from a supposed earlier appointment as an (RNR??) warrant officer skipper (termination unexplained), he then re-enrolled in the RNR as a junior deckhand. Moreover, that assumed previous naval service would have qualified him for medals (possibly including a 1914-15 Star) which would have been issued under this rank. Not only are earlier James PAULIN service records conspicuously ‘lost’ but the Medal Rolls only recognize his service as an RNR deckhand.

“We are convinced the uniform in wedding photo from 1916 (prior to records we can find) is an RNMBR Skipper - Imperial War museum photos show RNR Skippers had 8 buttons.” My alternative interpretation is that has improperly dressed himself in an officer/warrant officer uniform jacket to which have been applied the collar trade badges of (probably) a Chief Motor Mechanic RNMBR = Chief Petty Officer. He is not a Skipper RNMBR as there was no such rank in the RNVR. My foregoing explanation assumes that he has been correctly identified by his family at his 1916 wedding. If so, he has improperly and illegally dressed himself as a serving hybrid CPO/ warrant officer.

If we disregard the hybrid uniform and assume the man in the photo is, in reality, a serving Chief Motor Mechanic of the RNMBR of the RNVR, then I can only repeat that there is no evidence in Medal Rolls and RNVR servicerecords of aman named PAULIN holding that rate.

There is another, younger Burnmouth-born (22 Oct 1898) James PAULIN who has not been mentioned in previous posts.  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8522979  I assume you have discounted this RNR deckhand, who may be a relative.

I would relish being proved wrong in my assessments above but I have to call the shots as I see them.

[Muddywheels]

We have now found original of the other photo

[Allan1892]

The link to the Paulin family of Burnmouth that I posted above suggests that when he married Annie Souter in 1916 he was fishing out of Lossiemouth as he was living there at the time.

[Muddywheels]

7 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

You state “In October 1923 he also received RNR Medal…” but you offer no evidence for this although noting, correctly, that the RNR record has no evidence of this. I assume you mean the Reserve Long Service and Good Conduct (LS&GC) Medal. This was awarded after 15 years Reserve service so, based on his RNR entry date he would qualify in 1932. There is not a hint of long service.

Apologies this is screenshot from BT-377-7-64170 and father in law remembers this medal as a child with green ribbon.

  second page of BT-377-7-64170

[horatio2]

So, he cannot have been an active Lossie fisherman AND a serving naval rating at the same time in Feb 1916. 

I think the apparent 1929 reference to an RNR Medal is actually a supplementary award of Prize Money

[high wood]

44 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

Understood.

We have now found the original photo of wedding which I have rescanned at 1200dpi in an attempt to sharpen detail.

"There is also some writing on rear that confirms it is James Paulin and Ann Souter".

Sadly it doesn't, it confirms that who ever wrote the caption thought it was James Paulin and Ann Souter. Having spent many years researching photographs of other people's families, I have come across many examples of photographs attributed to individuals many years after the photograph was taken. I don't doubt that the photograph was amongst family photographs but I believe that it has been wrongly attributed. It is probably of a couple who James Paulin knew from his service in the Royal Navy or another relative. We know that James Paulin was a Deck Hand and I can see no reason why he would be wearing the uniform of a Petty Officer in the Motor Boat Service.

[Muddywheels]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

@Muddywheels -- although the article via the link below doesn't shed any light on James' service, it does give an insight to the Paulin family from Burnmouth.

By clicking on NEXT in this forum you will find a Paulin family tree (community-council.org.uk)

 

My late mother in law spent many years researching family history and visited Ladykirk graves to research that branch of the tree.

We have seen this article which has been pieced together from records found by the author.

[Muddywheels]

52 minutes ago, high wood said:

"There is also some writing on rear that confirms it is James Paulin and Ann Souter".

Sadly it doesn't, it confirms that who ever wrote the caption thought it was James Paulin and Ann Souter. Having spent many years researching photographs of other people's families, I have come across many examples of photographs attributed to individuals many years after the photograph was taken. I don't doubt that the photograph was amongst family photographs but I believe that it has been wrongly attributed. It is probably of a couple who James Paulin knew from his service in the Royal Navy or another relative. We know that James Paulin was a Deck Hand and I can see no reason why he would be wearing the uniform of a Petty Officer in the Motor Boat Service.

My father in law was born 1928 - his father died 1956 and his mother 1965 so he knows what they looked like.

He grew up with older brothers and sisters who also confirmed this was their wedding.

He doesn't have dementia or memory problems so if he says this photo is his parents wedding we accept this.

The uniform is a mystery that will probably never be answered now.

[high wood]

1 hour ago, Muddywheels said:

We have now found original of the other photo

This other photograph appears to have the name Dixon on the reverse. This may well be the name of the person in the photograph. Can you please show us the full name?

 

[Allan1892]

His marriage certificate shows that he was a Fisherman as was his father,

[Muddywheels]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

So, he cannot have been an active Lossie fisherman AND a serving naval rating at the same time in Feb 1916. 

I think the apparent 1929 reference to an RNR Medal is actually a supplementary award of Prize Money

Royal Naval Reserve wasn't full time as far as I am aware?

According to my father in law James Paulin was a Burnmouth fisherman. He met Ann/Annie Souter (a Herring girl from Lossiemouth) in Gt Yarmouth while he was with RNR.

Fishermen and Herring Girls regularly travelled around the coast following the Herring as it moved.

They married at Lossiemouth where James initially lived until he moved back to Burnmouth. Birth records for father in laws siblings are split between Lossiemouth and Burnmouth. BT-377-7-64170 has notes showing move to Berwick 18/12/1918 I think.

Reference was 1923 not 1929.

11 minutes ago, high wood said:

This other photograph appears to have the name Dixon on the reverse. This may well be the name of the person in the photograph. Can you please show us the full name?

 

This is James and Ann daughter - Helen Ann Dixon (nee Paulin)

[KizmeRD]

2 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

Royal Naval Reserve wasn't full time as far as I am aware?

According to my father in law James Paulin was a Burnmouth fisherman. He met Ann/Annie Souter (a Herring girl from Lossiemouth) in Gt Yarmouth while he was with RNR.

Unfortunately you are only half-aware - it’s true that in peacetime the Royal Naval Reserve was only a part-time commitment, but in wartime (1916) it most certainly was a FULL TIME obligation. 
MB

[Muddywheels]

10 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

His marriage certificate shows that he was a Fisherman as was his father,

Thank you.

[horatio2]

20 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

Royal Naval Reserve wasn't full time as far as I am aware?

I agree with @KizmeRD.It certainly was full time once mobilised as James PAULIN was in 11917-18. Before mobilisation he was not in the RNR but, from a date unknown, he was, as previously noted, listed in the RNVR 'Y' Section while following his fishing trade. Men in the 'Y' RNVR did not wear uniform and were not on active service until called-up. Your father-in-law may not be aware of the subtle difference between RNR and RNVR.

Edited 18 March , 2023 by horatio2

[Muddywheels]

48 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Unfortunately you are only half-aware - it’s true that in peacetime the Royal Naval Reserve was only a part-time commitment, but in wartime (1916) it most certainly was a FULL TIME obligation. 
MB

 

37 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

I agree with @KizmeRD.It certainly was full time once mobilised as James PAULIN was in 11917-18. Before mobilisation he was not in the RNR but, from a date unknown, he was, as previously noted, listed in the RNVR 'Y' Section while following his fishing trade. Men in the 'Y' RNVR did not wear uniform and were not on active service until called-up. Your father-in-law may not be aware of the subtle difference between RNR and RNVR.

Thank you for clarifying this

[horatio2]

To put pre-WW1, part-time service into context: of some 23,000 men who served as Trawler Section RNR deckhands (*****.DA Official Nos.) only about 400 were enrolled before the war.