Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Uniform and Badge Question

[Muddywheels]

I am trying to identify the rank if possible of my wifes grandad/father in laws dad. My father in law is still living and remembers the medals but they have been lost and we would like to replace them.

We have records of medals awarded identifying him as a D.H. or Deck Hand but the uniform he is wearing for his wedding and another appear to be higher rank - warrant officer/skipper?

We can just make out a 4 bladed ship propeller on his jacket.

Please can anyone help or advise where to find more information?

[high wood]

I think that the collar badges that he is wearing may indicate that he served with the Motor Boat Reserve.

 

 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by high wood

[Muddywheels]

3 minutes ago, high wood said:

I think that the collar badges that he is wearing may indicate that he served with the Motor Boat Reserve.

Thank you HW - will do some research on this and see what we find. It does appear to have 3 letters around the blades - possibly MBR?

[michaeldr]

5 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

It does appear to have 3 letters around the blades - possibly MBR?

His cap badge also appears to have lettering above the anchor such as used in the MBR see https://www.bonhams.com/auction/18901/lot/214/royal-navy-motor-boat-reserve-cpos-cap-badge-and-ww1-pair-of-medals/

[Muddywheels]

Just now, michaeldr said:

His cap badge also appears to have lettering above the anchor such as used in the MBR see https://www.bonhams.com/auction/18901/lot/214/royal-navy-motor-boat-reserve-cpos-cap-badge-and-ww1-pair-of-medals/

Thank you michaeldr - the quality isn't great but I have blown it up as best I can.

Will look at this.

[KizmeRD]

The easiest way of finding out the answers to what his rate was would be for you to tell us his name.
That way we can take a quick look at his ADM service sheet.

MB

[Muddywheels]

21 minutes ago, high wood said:

I think that the collar badges that he is wearing may indicate that he served with the Motor Boat Reserve.

 

 

Thank you HW that is the badge!

[Muddywheels]

3 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

The easiest way of finding out the answers to what his rate was would be for you to tell us his name.
That way we can take a quick look at his ADM service sheet.

MB

Thank you KizmeRD

This is what we know so far -

James Paulin

Deck Hand D.H. ?

Service No DA 17744

R.N.R.T.S.

 

BT-377-7-64170.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

This seems to be the insignia.  Forum member @horatio2might be able to tell us more about this service.

 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Muddywheels]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

This seems to be the insignia.  Forum member @horatio2might be able to tell us more about this service.

Thank you FROGSMILE

Looking at the photos again we think the white cap has RNR badge and dark cap is RNMBR

He was married in 1916 when the photo in white cap was taken but this is prior to his enrolment record dated 21 August 1917?

Not sure when the photo in dark cap was taken

He received a RNR LSGC medal 29 10 1923 which is later than the service record discharge date?

Edited 17 March , 2023 by Muddywheels

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

Thank you FROGSMILE

Looking at the photos again we think the white cap has RNR badge and dark cap is RNMBR

If you have a good quality magnifier it should be possible to see the detail.

Surviving collar insignia seems to be exceedingly rare.

[high wood]

The only problem with this is that the gentleman in the photograph is not a Deck Hand.

[Muddywheels]

2 minutes ago, high wood said:

The only problem with this is that the gentleman in the photograph is not a Deck Hand.

Yes - this is very confusing!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muddywheels said:

I am trying to identify the rank if possible of my wifes grandad/father in laws dad. My father in law is still living and remembers the medals but they have been lost and we would like to replace them.

We have records of medals awarded identifying him as a D.H. or Deck Hand but the uniform he is wearing for his wedding and another appear to be higher rank - warrant officer/skipper?

We can just make out a 4 bladed ship propeller on his jacket.

Please can anyone help or advise where to find more information?

His cap insignia and double breasted jacket suggests he is rated as a Chief Petty Officer.  However, presumably he might have started out as a deck hand.  I’m sure that @horatio2and @RNCVRwill pop along soon to explain.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Muddywheels]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

His cap insignia and double breasted jacket suggests he is rated as a Chief Petty Officer.

Totally agree - if only we still had his original medals we would have more details

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Muddywheels said:

Totally agree - if only we still had his original medals we would have more details

I suspect all will be revealed once the real naval experts get here.

[Allan1892]

@Muddywheels -- is there any notation on the back of the first photograph? Names / date?

[Allan1892]

James Paulin, #DA 17744, according to page 1 of his service record (courtesy of the National Archives) he enlisted on the 21 August 1917.

Page 2 of his service record (courtesy of the National Archives) shows that his next of kin was his wife Annie.

I have only found one marriage that would fit:

25th February 1916, Lossiemouth, James Paulin married Annie Souter

Does the name Annie fit in with your wife's family history?

If so, I can't see how the photograph can be of James Paulin and Annie Souter as the marriage took place before James enlisted.

[KizmeRD]

Very evidently then, the chap in the photo with a lady on his arm IS NOT the same person as Deckhand James Paulin DA17744 RNR(TS) born Burnmouth 1887 

Assuming the lady is the bride, and it’s her wedding day in August 1916, she must be on the arm of somebody else (perhaps her brother was giving her away, and he happened to be a PO in the Motor Boat Reserve?).

It would appear that you need to backtrack on some of your current assumptions.

MB

Edited 17 March , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Muddywheels]

24 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

James Paulin, #DA 17744, according to page 1 of his service record (courtesy of the National Archives) he enlisted on the 21 August 1917.

Page 2 of his service record (courtesy of the National Archives) shows that his next of kin was his wife Annie.

I have only found one marriage that would fit:

25th February 1916, Lossiemouth, James Paulin married Annie Souter

Does the name Annie fit in with your wife's family history?

If so, I can't see how the photograph can be of James Paulin and Annie Souter as the marriage took place before James enlisted.

All correct and the reason we are confused - father in law has confirmed the photo is of his mother Annie Souter, Lossiemouth and father James Paulin, Burnmouth taken 2016 when they married. Parents names "James" & "Mary" have also been confirmed by him

There is a note at bottom of second page "NATURE OF SERVICE PRIOR TO ENTERING RESERVE" that could be relevant suggesting he had previous service "Sec?-?-22676"

[Muddywheels]

4 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Very evidently then, the chap in the photo with a lady on his arm IS NOT the same person as Deckhand James Paulin DA17744 RNR(TS) born Burnmouth 1887 

Assuming the lady is the bride, and it’s her wedding day in August 1916, she must be on the arm of somebody else (perhaps her brother was giving her away, and he happened to be a PO in the Motor Boat Reserve?).

It would appear that you need to backtrack on some of your current assumptions.

MB

It's a mystery as my father in law is still living and adamant photo is of his parents marriage in 2016 and the records match his family - only thing he disputes is the DH Rating.

[Muddywheels]

1 hour ago, Allan1892 said:

@Muddywheels -- is there any notation on the back of the first photograph? Names / date?

Unfortunately we are unable to find the original photo right now and only have a scanned copy at the moment - my wife is looking for the original in her late mums albums.

[Allan1892]

I don't know if you have seen the attached announcement before. (courtesy of Find My Past)

[Muddywheels]

Just now, Allan1892 said:

I don't know if you have seen the attached announcement before. (courtesy of Find My Past)

Allan1892 we have not seen this!

That is definitely my wifes grandad/her dads father.

[Muddywheels]

Just been talking to my cousin (ex Merchant Navy Officer) and he tells me the wedding photo was either his uniform in 2016 or he could of been given permission to wear it if no longer serving for the wedding.

The D.H. rating 2017+ could of been the only position available and he accepted this to rejoin and assist the war effort - he says it was common for men to take anything available if there previous rating was not available so they could rejoin.