Royal Naval Reserve Trawler Section Uniform and Badge Question

[RNCVR]

5 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

His cap insignia and double breasted jacket suggests he is rated as a Chief Petty Officer.  However, presumably he might have started out as a deck hand.  I’m sure that @horatio2and @RNCVRwill pop along soon to explain.

The rating in the original photo is a member of the RN Motor Boat Reserve formed in 1914.   He could have been a Chief Motor Boatman, his uniform would have been as this rating is wearing with gilt buttons, gold CPO cap badge with letters RNMBR & red or gold lapel/collar rate badges.  Motor Boatmen had black horn buttons & a red cap badge with letters RNMBR.

Their lapel/collar badges bore the letters CMM, MBR, or MM. As I have sold my RN rate badge collection I only have one example to show below.

The RNMBR was disbanded at the end of 1WW.

What concerns me about the initial photo is this rating is wearing an 8 button tunic(4 buttons each side), & he should be wearing a 6 button tunic (3 buttons each side).  Normally RN Officers wore the 8 button tunic, & CPO's & PO's wore the 6 button tunic.

 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

The rating in the original photo is a member of the RN Motor Boat Reserve formed in 1914.   He could have been a Chief Motor Boatman, his uniform would have been as this rating is wearing with gilt buttons, gold CPO cap badge with letters RNMBR & red or gold lapel/collar rate badges.  Motor Boatmen had black horn buttons & a red cap badge with letters RNMBR.

Their lapel/collar badges bore the letters CMB, MBR, or MM. As I have sold my RN rate badge collection I only have one example to show below.

The RNMBR was disbanded at the end of 1WW.

What concerns me about the initial photo is this rating is wearing an 8 button tunic(4 buttons each side), & he should be wearing a 6 button tunic (3 buttons each side).  Normally RN Officers wore the 8 button tunic, & CPO's & PO's wore the 6 button tunic.

 

Thank you Bryan, very interesting.  Is it possible that the 8-button jacket is of an earlier Edwardian pattern (it seems not going by enclosed image)?  Also what if anything is the significance of the vertically aligned cuff buttons and leather gloves that he wears in both photos?

 

 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Muddywheels]

6 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

The rating in the original photo is a member of the RN Motor Boat Reserve formed in 1914.   He could have been a Chief Motor Boatman, his uniform would have been as this rating is wearing with gilt buttons, gold CPO cap badge with letters RNMBR & red or gold lapel/collar rate badges.  Motor Boatmen had black horn buttons & a red cap badge with letters RNMBR.

Their lapel/collar badges bore the letters CMB, MBR, or MM. As I have sold my RN rate badge collection I only have one example to show below.

The RNMBR was disbanded at the end of 1WW.

What concerns me about the initial photo is this rating is wearing an 8 button tunic(4 buttons each side), & he should be wearing a 6 button tunic (3 buttons each side).  Normally RN Officers wore the 8 button tunic, & CPO's & PO's wore the 6 button tunic.

 

Thank you RNCVR for sharing this information - it is greatly appreciated.

You have given us a lot to think about especially the buttons.

[RNCVR]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Bryan, very interesting.  Is it possible that the 8-button jacket is of an earlier Edwardian pattern (it seems not going by enclosed image)?  Also what if anything is the significance of the vertically aligned cuff buttons and leather gloves that he wears in both photos

No, RN CPO's & PO's wearing the Class I rig (suit type tunic) always always wore 6 double breasted gilt tunic buttons, & RN Officers & Warrant Officers wore 8 double breasted gilt tunic buttons.  Also they never wore gloves, or I have certainly never seen a CPO/PO wearing gloves in any of the CDV's or RPPC's I have in my quite large collection of them.

RN Officers yes, but CPO's/PO's no.

CPOs & PO's in this time frame (& prior to 1WW) could also wear a single breasted tunic with 3 vertical buttons, as an everyday rig wear working around ship/base.

 

The 2nd image shown on page 1 of the vertical cuff buttons on this PO's tunic was normal for Petty Officers dressed in class I uniform. He also wears the red cap badge of a PO.  

 

[RNCVR]

23 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

Thank you RNCVR for sharing this information - it is greatly appreciated.

You have given us a lot to think about especially the buttons.

Yes @Muddywheels  I would like to know why he is wearing this 8 button tunic.  be interesting to know if the buttons are CPO or Officer buttons as well but no way to tell in this photo.  Also I am unable to make out the exact lettering on the Motor Boat insignia on his lapels.

I am guessing this is some purpose formal photo taken of the rating & his fiance or wife.  I dont think its a wedding photo due to her somewhat informal dress, it more a walking out outfit.  Its certainly a nice photo tho!

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

Their lapel/collar badges bore the letters CMB, MBR, or MM. As I have sold my RN rate badge collection I only have one example to show below.

iI understand that the collar badges were:

Chief Motor Mechanic (CMM) (equivalent to ERA 1, 2 or 3 CPO depending on years of experience) four-bladed propellor with letters M C M (West > North > East).

Motor Mechanic (MM) (equivalent to Leading Stoker) four-bladed propellor with letter M M (West > East).

Motor Boatman (MB) (equivalent to Able Seaman) the letters M B (West > East) on a vertical Admiralty pattern anchor.

For more detail  -   - https://rmhistorical.com/files/content/AFO 1725 27-7-1916 RN.pdf

Edited 17 March , 2023 by horatio2

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

No, RN CPO's & PO's wearing the Class I rig (suit type tunic) always always wore 6 double breasted gilt tunic buttons, & RN Officers & Warrant Officers wore 8 double breasted gilt tunic buttons.  Also they never wore gloves, or I have certainly never seen a CPO/PO wearing gloves in any of the CDV's or RPPC's I have in my quite large collection of them.

RN Officers yes, but CPO's/PO's no.

CPOs & PO's in this time frame (& prior to 1WW) could also wear a single breasted tunic with 3 vertical buttons, as an everyday rig wear working around ship/base.

 

The 2nd image shown on page 1 of the vertical cuff buttons on this PO's tunic was normal for Petty Officers dressed in class I uniform. He also wears the red cap badge of a PO.  

 

Thanks Bryan, that’s clear.  As his prewar role was presumably as a civilian mariner on small boats I can only assume that he’s perhaps repurposed a civilian jacket.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[horatio2]

Standing well back from the argument as to who?, when? and where?, which seem unclear to family members, I will merely add that:

1. I can see no service in the Motor Boat Reserve (an RNVR off-shoot) written into the RNR record of Deckhand James Paulin. RNR reckhands did serve as seamen in the RNMBR but they wore RNR Trawler Reserve uniform (i.e. square rig) and retained RNR Official Numbers (****.DA).

2. "...previous service "Sec?-?-22676" refers to his original volunteering for the Naval Service which saw he final enrolment postponed and, until RNR call-up. In the interim, he continued his civilian trade while enrolled in ''Y' Section of the RNVR as Y.22676.

3. There is no trace of any PAULIN being awarded WW1 medals as a member of the Motor Boat Reserve. There is only one PAULIN (with wrong d.o.b.) in the RNVR ratings' medal roll.

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

iI understand that the collar badges were:

Chief Motor Mechanic (CMM) (equivalent to ERA 1, 2 or 3 CPO depending on years of experience) four-bladed propellor with letters M C M (West > North > East).

Motor Mechanic (MM) (equivalent to Leading Stoker) four-bladed propellor with letter M M (West > East).

Motor Boatman (MB) (equivalent to Able Seaman) the letters M B (West > East) on a vertical Admiralty pattern anchor.

For more detail  -   - https://rmhistorical.com/files/content/AFO 1725 27-7-1916 RN.pdf

Apologies, I mistyped CMB instead of CMM, I have amended my post to correct this.

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Bryan, that’s clear.  As his prewar role was presumably as a civilian mariner on small boats I can only assume that he’s perhaps repurposed a civilian jacket.

Yes @FROGSMILE that is quite possible.  Being in the MBR he might not have come into contact with RN Executive branch Officers that would surely pick him up on his tunic buttons.  

[Muddywheels]

1 hour ago, horatio2 said:

Standing well back from the argument as to who?, when? and where?, which seem unclear to family members, I will merely add that:

1. I can see no service in the Motor Boat Reserve (an RNVR off-shoot) written into the RNR record of Deckhand James Paulin. RNR reckhands did serve as seamen in the RNMBR but they wore RNR Trawler Reserve uniform (i.e. square rig) and retained RNR Official Numbers (****.DA).

2. "...previous service "Sec?-?-22676" refers to his original volunteering for the Naval Service which saw he final enrolment postponed and, until RNR call-up. In the interim, he continued his civilian trade while enrolled in ''Y' Section of the RNVR as Y.22676.

3. There is no trace of any PAULIN being awarded WW1 medals as a member of the Motor Boat Reserve. There is only one PAULIN (with wrong d.o.b.) in the RNVR ratings' medal roll.

Thank you for this information.

[Muddywheels]

While searching for more details I came across this https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=217368 post No5 caught my attention.

Not clear but the uniform appears to match the wedding dress photo and have 8 buttons!

[Muddywheels]

Also photo here of skippers with 8 buttons https://www.royal-naval-reserve.co.uk/service.htm

Father in law does remember his father talking about serving at Portland.

Quote

A fine group of Commissioned Skippers.
This photograph can be found at the RNPS museum, Lowestoft and is probably a group of trainee Skippers with a Lieutenant RN, taken at either HMS Victory XI or HMS Boscawen, Portland Naval Depot. Year of photograph is unknown.
My grandfather is in the back row, 2^nd from the left.

Edited 17 March , 2023 by Muddywheels

[KizmeRD]

The look of the ‘rig’ certainly suggests to me that the person wearing it might have been a member of the early motor boat reserve. As during the first year of its existence (Oct 14-15), the RNMBR still wasn’t too ‘professional’ in its approach to RN regulation and wasn’t renowned for going about its business in a ‘pukka’ manner. They were, at first, just an enthusiastic bunch of amateur motor yacht owners who volunteered their services to the navy and brought their boats with them (sometimes complete with one or two crew members too). The early Motor Boat Reserve tended to be used as picket boats and run-arounds in the various naval ports and anchorages. Later (from Oct 1915 onwards) it was realised that if the motor boat reserve was re-equipped with larger, more capable motor vessels, then they could fulfil a more useful role operating in inshore waters on anti-submarine duties, as an adjunct to the the Auxiliary Patrol. The navy then went about commissioning large numbers of (ELCO) motor launches and CMB’s, and naval life for follow-on RNMBR members (rapidly expanded) suddenly became a lot more serious and regulated - with training and operating standards imposed by HMS Hermione (Southampton). 
 

That said, still nothing conclusive yet linking the uniform worn by the mystery man in the photo to Deckhand James Paulin from Burnmouth. - And as previously stated, Officers jackets had 8 buttons (unless you were Admiral Beatty) , and Ratings made do with six.

MB

Edit - looking at above photo, I can see no evidence of this being a group of RNR(TS) Skippers, only one RNR officer clearly shown, the rest appear to be regular RN officers, probably post-war judging by the number of medal ribbons on display. 

 

Edited 17 March , 2023 by KizmeRD

[horatio2]

2 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

That said, still nothing conclusive yet linking the uniform worn by the mystery man in the photo to Deckhand James Paulin from Burnmouth. - And as previously stated, Officers jackets had 8 buttons (unless you were Admiral Beatty) , and Ratings made do with six.

I agree. The apparent CMM WOTSIZNAME RNMBR (however 'early' his wrong uniform) cannot be a PAULIN.. As previously stated, that surname does not appear among the 3,156 documented ratings in the RNMBR.

11 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

taken at either HMS Victory XI or HMS Boscawen, Portland Naval Depot. Year of photograph is unknown.

HMS VICTORY XI (later HMS /BOSCAWEN) dates the image to 1920 - 1932 or even later. Not WW1.

[Allan1892]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

I am guessing this is some purpose formal photo taken of the rating & his fiance or wife.  I dont think its a wedding photo due to her somewhat informal dress, it more a walking out outfit.  Its certainly a nice photo tho!

Looks like a wedding ring on her left hand.

[Muddywheels]

Just now, Allan1892 said:

Looks like a wedding ring on her left hand.

Father in law is adamant this was his parents wedding day - James Paulin and Ann/Annie Souter.

We are unable to find evidence on records for the uniform he wore that day so will be ordering replacement for lost medals with D.H. rating and service number shown on records.

Thank you everyone for your input.

[Matlock1418]

8 hours ago, Muddywheels said:

This pension index card refers to HMT "Lord Mersey" - is it possible there is a crew list or similar?

Now back to more of what I know more surely - The allowance of 8/3 [pw] paid was the rate for a Class V soldier or sailor, incl. a Deck Hand, with a degree of disablement assessed at 30%, [and this quantum was not used for a higher rank or alternative disablement] at the time of his discharge.

M

Edited 17 March , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[Muddywheels]

Thanks everyone for your input - evidence clearly shows James Paulin was a D.H. from August 1917 until the end of the war when he received British and Victory medal so we will go ahead and order their replacements accordingly.

Records we have found show he received Naval Prize Money in Nov 1920 and Oct 1922. In October 1923 he also received RNR Medal which would not have been possible based on records we have found for DA 17744 so there must be further records we have not seen.

We are convinced the uniform in wedding photo from 1916 (prior to records we can find) is an RNMBR Skipper - Imperial War museum photos show RNR Skippers had 8 buttons

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=rnr+skipper&pageSize=30&media-records=records-with-media&style=list

Searching the net I have found various sources regarding RNR Skippers claiming their equivalent ranking went from WO to Lieutenant Commander 

https://www.commsmuseum.co.uk/dykes/insult/insult.htm

http://www.godfreydykes.info/A_FEW_NAVAL_PHOTOGRAPHS_OF_INTEREST.html

Edited 18 March , 2023 by Muddywheels
Mistyped years

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, Muddywheels said:

Thanks everyone for your input - evidence clearly shows James Paulin was a D.H. from August 2017 until the end of the war when he received British and Victory medal so we will go ahead and order their replacements accordingly.

Records we have found show he received Naval Prize Money in Nov 1920 and Oct 1922. In October 1923 he also received RNR Medal which would not have been possible based on records we have found for DA 17744 so there must be further records we have not seen.

We are convinced the uniform in wedding photo from 2016 (prior to records we can find) is an RNMBR Skipper - Imperial War museum photos show RNR Skippers had 8 buttons

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=rnr+skipper&pageSize=30&media-records=records-with-media&style=list

Searching the net I have found various sources regarding RNR Skippers claiming their equivalent ranking went from WO to Lieutenant Commander 

https://www.commsmuseum.co.uk/dykes/insult/insult.htm

http://www.godfreydykes.info/A_FEW_NAVAL_PHOTOGRAPHS_OF_INTEREST.html

I have followed this thread with interest and totally understand and sympathise with your desire to make sense of family photos and the story behind them.  Nevertheless, it’s important to view the evidence with an open mind and as objectively as you can.  Several times now you have quoted dates as 2016 and 2017, which is a little confusing even though typos are entirely understandable.  Secondly it’s necessary to be careful not to read incorrectly into differences between warrant officers and commissioned officers uniforms.  Both had 8-button jackets, as shown by the photo of warrant officers below.  It is petty officers (including chiefs) and their specialist departmental equivalents that had 6-buttons.  Your photo is clearly of a petty officer from his cap insignia, so the 8-button jacket appears to be categorically against regulations, which sometimes occurs with auxiliary servicemen.

Edited 18 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Muddywheels]

Apologies for the mistyped years 

I have corrected all I can but earlier posts are locked now so I am unable to resolve 

Edited 18 March , 2023 by Muddywheels

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Muddywheels said:

Apologies for the mistyped years 

No need, it’s entirely understandable, but I felt best pointed out in order to make more sense of the cut and thrust of the narrative.

Edited 18 March , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Muddywheels]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I have followed this thread with interest and totally understand and sympathise with your desire to make sense of family photos and the story behind them.  Nevertheless, it’s important to view the evidence with an open mind and as objectively as you can.  Several times now you have quoted dates as 2016 and 2017, which is a little confusing even though typos are entirely understandable.  Secondly it’s necessary to be careful not to read incorrectly into differences between warrant officers and commissioned officers uniforms.  Both had 8-button jackets, as shown by the photo of warrant officers below.  It is petty officers (including chiefs) and their specialist departmental equivalents that had 6-buttons.  Your photo is clearly of a petty officer from his cap insignia, so the 8-button jacket appears to be categorically against regulations, which sometimes occurs with auxiliary servicemen.

Thanks FROGSMILE

It would of been nice to find records prior to 1917 to fill in the gaps but I doubt we will now.

My father in law has his photos and will soon have replacement for the lost medals so he will be a happy.

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, Muddywheels said:

We are convinced the uniform in wedding photo from 1916 (prior to records we can find) is an RNMBR Skipper 

That’s fine, but please refrain from regurgitating only partly understood information that might mislead and confuse subsequent readers of this thread.

FYI ‘Skipper’ was both an official rank specific to the RNR (Trawler Section) AND also general nautical slang for the ship’s Captain/Commanding Officer. The context in which the term is being used is all important.

And naval uniform regulations are sufficiently well defined and adhered to so as to make instances of divergence attract a lot of attention.

MB.

[Muddywheels]

6 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

That’s fine, but please refrain from regurgitating only partly understood information that might mislead and confuse subsequent readers of this thread.

FYI ‘Skipper’ was both an official rank specific to the RNR (Trawler Section) AND also general nautical slang for the ship’s Captain/Commanding Officer. The context in which the term is being used is all important.

And naval uniform regulations are sufficiently well defined and adhered to so as to make instances of divergence attract a lot of attention.

MB.

Understood.

We have now found the original photo of wedding which I have rescanned at 1200dpi in an attempt to sharpen detail. There is also some writing on rear that confirms it is James Paulin and Ann Souter