Khaki drill tunic

[19mac79]

Hi all,

Just bought this thinking it was a post 1924 pattern British KD frock at an antique shop, however it has got plain cuffs and plain patch pockets. Any ideas? 

Cheers 

Andrew

 

[FROGSMILE]

KD was one of the most diverse uniforms for British and Empire soldiers.  As well as British patterns from the Royal Army Clothing Department at Pimlico, there were many variants produced by the Indian Army equivalents (at Alipore and Madras) as well as privately made types purchased by soldiers from bazaar tailors (durzis) for walking out from cantonments and camp lines (tailoring was very cheap).  If you use the search facility within the forum you will find several informative threads on the subject.

Edited 18 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[19mac79]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

KD was one of the most diverse uniforms for British and Empire soldiers.  As well as British patterns from the Royal Army Clothing Department at Pimlico, there were many variants produced by the Indian Army equivalents (at Alipore and Madras) as well as privately made types purchased by soldiers from bazaar tailors (durzis) for walking out from cantonments and camp lines (tailoring was very cheap).  If you use the search facility within the forum you will find several informative threads on the subject.

Thanks frogsmile 

Regards

Andrew 

 

[4thGordons]

There was a super detailed thread on these a number of years ago with lots of pics but I am struggling to find it.

I will keep looking

Chris

[4thGordons]

THIS WAS THE ONE I WAS THINKING OF

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, 19mac79 said:

Thanks frogsmile 

Regards

Andrew 

 

This might be the thread Chris is referring to: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/66470-tropical-jacket-and-trousers-suitable-for-ww1-or-not/?tab=comments#comment-588008

 

Just now, 4thGordons said:

THIS WAS THE ONE I WAS THINKING OF

Snap! 😉👍

[4thGordons]

yes it was

[19mac79]

Thanks guys that's great. I'll have a look.

Regards

Andrew 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, 4thGordons said:

yes it was

Also this one:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/165361-british-uniforms-india-1914/page/2/#comment-1611780

 

Edited 18 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

On 18/02/2023 at 16:27, 19mac79 said:

Hi all,

Just bought this thinking it was a post 1924 pattern British KD frock at an antique shop, however it has got plain cuffs and plain patch pockets. Any ideas? 

Cheers 

Andrew

 

 

As others have said, KD came in various styles but what would put this very much in the post-war category for me is the colour. Wartime KD was quite a warm colour, sometimes orangey and sometimes tan. Post-war was a paler, greyer shade - which this here looks like. A single vent to the rear is also indicative of a post-war jacket.

IIRC some wartime Canadian KD was quite grey and nearer to the post-war shade; but if there is nothing to say Canadian, and it's single-vented, then it's later period all day long. 

Illustrated below is my 1915-dated simplified example (pix courtesy Campaign 1915/ Oliver Lock/ Military Mode).

Cheers,

GT.

[FROGSMILE]

The FK abbreviation on the label is interesting and not something I’ve ever noticed before.  I imagine it might refer to frock khaki.

 Is anything more known about LERMANN & GATTYS KHAKI? 
 

Edited 19 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The FK abbreviation on the label is interesting and not something I’ve ever noticed before.  I imagine it might refer to frock khaki.

 Is anything more known about LERMANN & GATTYS KHAKI? 
 

I've always taken FK to simply be a short form of 'frock'.

Leemann & Gatty's was a manufacturer of military cloth of all types. It was contracted by the government in particular for KD as it had patented a dyeing process that rendered it relatively colourfast compared to previous variants.

Cheers,

GT.

Edited 20 February , 2023 by Grovetown
Lehmann to Leemann

[19mac79]

Hi GT 

Thanks for the input. When you say post war, do you mean post WW1 or post WW2? 

I've still not found any pictures what so ever of this pattern either in period pics 20s to 50s or as examples on the net. It's completely thrown me to be fair. Nice condition economy frock by the way. I have one of those somewhere in a box but in very worn condition, certainly not mint like yours. 

I agree with the colouring suggestion. It's certainly not a WW1 colour for issue British made KD. It's the same colour as an Indian made example I have and also two South African pre WW1 examples I have (Transvaal Scottish volunteers). 

Regards 

Andrew

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

I've always taken FK to simply be a short form of 'frock'.

Lehmann & Gattys was a manufacturer of military cloth of all types. It was contracted by the government in particular for KD as it had patented a dyeing process that rendered it relatively colourfast compared to previous variants.

Cheers,

GT.

That’s interesting thank you, especially the reference to patented dye, it’s something that I’ve looked at previously in connection with rifle green shades.  I suspect that Lehman was a Jewish tailor, so many military tailoring proprietors were and still are.  Every one of my bespoke uniforms (via transfers between corps) came from military tailors of similar ethnic backgrounds. 

Edited 19 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[19mac79]

22 minutes ago, Grovetown said:

 

As others have said, KD came in various styles but what would put this very much in the post-war category for me is the colour. Wartime KD was quite a warm colour, sometimes orangey and sometimes tan. Post-war was a paler, greyer shade - which this here looks like. A single vent to the rear is also indicative of a post-war jacket.

IIRC some wartime Canadian KD was quite grey and nearer to the post-war shade; but if there is nothing to say Canadian, and it's single-vented, then it's later period all day long. 

Illustrated below is my 1915-dated simplified example (pix courtesy Campaign 1915/ Oliver Lock/ Military Mode).

Cheers,

GT.

I've just looked back at my photos..... They're terrible haha. It's nothing like that colour. It's far more yellow khaki than the grey it looks in the picture.

Regards 

Andrew

 

 

[Grovetown]

7 minutes ago, 19mac79 said:

Hi GT 

Thanks for the input. When you say post war, do you mean post WW1 or post WW2? 

I've still not found any pictures what so ever of this pattern either in period pics 20s to 50s or as examples on the net. It's completely thrown me to be fair. Nice condition economy frock by the way. I have one of those somewhere in a box but in very worn condition, certainly not mint like yours. 

I agree with the colouring suggestion. It's certainly not a WW1 colour for issue British made KD. It's the same colour as an Indian made example I have and also two South African pre WW1 examples I have (Transvaal Scottish volunteers). 

Regards 

Andrew

Post-WW1, if it is grey-green - but you now say the pix aren't represenative.

Pre-WW1 and wartime Indian KD was also the warmer, browner shade - the colour change came in 1924, along with the rationalising of all patterns to Indian (square flaps, stand and fall collar).

How many rear vents does this have?

Cheers,

GT.

 

[19mac79]

It has one vent which made me think post 1924 straight away when I bought it. It's just confusing me that as post 1924 (which I firmly believe it is) I just can't find the pattern for it. Post 1924 saw more standardisation and a reduction in the number of 'types' of KD issued to the army and navy, however I just can't pinpoint this particular frock. 

I can't see any WD marks inside and no label (obviously).

The central rear vent ends at pretty much half the length of the frock. Again, too long for the standard post 1924 KD army issue (none kilted regiments) frock. All a bit of a mystery really. 

Regards 

Andrew 

 

 

[MaureenE]

1909 ad for F A Gatty & Co  Ltd  "Dyers  of Leemann & Gatty's Original Patented Fast Khaki"  .....Contractors to H M War Office & India Office"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/6717359609

From the following link https://100hallsaroundmanchester.wordpress.com/2020/10/08/100-halls-around-manchester-part-15-west-bank-house-heaton-norris/

The next inhabitants were John Leeman (1843-1918) and his wife Amy (1859-1933) John was born in Switzerland and became a British Citizen. He partnered with a French immigrant, Frederick Albert Gatty (1819-1888), who had discovered and patented khaki dye in 1884. In 1842 Gatty started out as a Turkey Red dyer in Accrington. Gatty had visited India to see what would sell in the British Raj. He met Major General Alexander Kinloch who told him of the need for a fast khaki dye to replace the inferior native dyes. Khaki means dust in Hindi.

The process became incredibly popular and Leeman and Gatty were able to fill the demand profitably with their army contracts. During World War I they supplied 50 million yards of Khaki to the army. The Gatty concern manufactured the cloth and Leeman distributed it via E Spinner & Co. Being a rich man, Leeman could afford to donate £50,000 (£3.5m in 2020) to the war effort in 1917, after all the war was making him and extremely rich man.

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, MaureenE said:

1909 ad for F A Gatty & Co  Ltd  "Dyers  of Leemann & Gatty's Original Patented Fast Khaki"  .....Contractors to H M War Office & India Office"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/6717359609

From the following link https://100hallsaroundmanchester.wordpress.com/2020/10/08/100-halls-around-manchester-part-15-west-bank-house-heaton-norris/

The next inhabitants were John Leeman (1843-1918) and his wife Amy (1859-1933) John was born in Switzerland and became a British Citizen. He partnered with a French immigrant, Frederick Albert Gatty (1819-1888), who had discovered and patented khaki dye in 1884. In 1842 Gatty started out as a Turkey Red dyer in Accrington. Gatty had visited India to see what would sell in the British Raj. He met Major General Alexander Kinloch who told him of the need for a fast khaki dye to replace the inferior native dyes. Khaki means dust in Hindi.

The process became incredibly popular and Leeman and Gatty were able to fill the demand profitably with their army contracts. During World War I they supplied 50 million yards of Khaki to the army. The Gatty concern manufactured the cloth and Leeman distributed it via E Spinner & Co. Being a rich man, Leeman could afford to donate £50,000 (£3.5m in 2020) to the war effort in 1917, after all the war was making him and extremely rich man.

Maureen

That’s fantastic information Maureen.  Brilliant, thank you.  The “Turkey Red” quote is important too, as that became the formally described contract standard specification for the infantry (plus a few other exclusive corps**) sergeants’ worsted sash.  All forgotten in the mists of time in todays Army.  Thank you for posting the fascinating details of this one time important company.

**including the Army Pay Corps, the Corps of Army Staff Clerks (while it existed) and the Corps of Armourer Sergeants (while it existed, and if attached to an Infantry battalion).

 

Edited 20 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Grovetown]

13 hours ago, MaureenE said:

1909 ad for F A Gatty & Co  Ltd  "Dyers  of Leemann & Gatty's Original Patented Fast Khaki"  .....Contractors to H M War Office & India Office"

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rpsmithbarney/6717359609

From the following link https://100hallsaroundmanchester.wordpress.com/2020/10/08/100-halls-around-manchester-part-15-west-bank-house-heaton-norris/

The next inhabitants were John Leeman (1843-1918) and his wife Amy (1859-1933) John was born in Switzerland and became a British Citizen. He partnered with a French immigrant, Frederick Albert Gatty (1819-1888), who had discovered and patented khaki dye in 1884. In 1842 Gatty started out as a Turkey Red dyer in Accrington. Gatty had visited India to see what would sell in the British Raj. He met Major General Alexander Kinloch who told him of the need for a fast khaki dye to replace the inferior native dyes. Khaki means dust in Hindi.

The process became incredibly popular and Leeman and Gatty were able to fill the demand profitably with their army contracts. During World War I they supplied 50 million yards of Khaki to the army. The Gatty concern manufactured the cloth and Leeman distributed it via E Spinner & Co. Being a rich man, Leeman could afford to donate £50,000 (£3.5m in 2020) to the war effort in 1917, after all the war was making him and extremely rich man.

Maureen

 

 

Great info thanks Maureen.

I've edited my post to show the correct spelling, and will let Chris Pollendine know should Campaign 1915 look like it'll get a second edition.

Cheers,

GT.

[Wardog]

Hello GT. I wonder if you happen to have any word on further additions to the Campaign books. I realise there could be many reasons, be they business or personal, for the series not progressing but it would good to know for sure. Regards, Paul.

[Wardog]

Anyone have any information regards the Campaign series of books? I guess after 6 or 7 years there will not be a 1916, 1917,  or 1918.  Be good to know for sure though. I have asked on the forum and contacted the puplisher before but that was several years ago, and back then it sounded like there was still a chance of further books. Regards, Paul.

[Wardog]

No reply as yet to my latest publisher enquiry. Anyone have any info? Regards, Paul.

Edited 4 March , 2023 by Wardog

[Dave66]

I was also looking forward to the 1916 edition as the first two were brilliant…personally, can’t see it happening now, but will be extremely happy to be proven wrong 😑.

Dave.

[Wardog]

No reply from publisher. I would very much like to hear from anyone who has information on the Campaign books. A quick message to me would be fine if there is a reason why such info needs to be kept off the forum.  Regards, Paul.