British uniforms India 1914

[Muerrisch]

A few more words on the scarlet frock, India Pattern, which I shall call the IP scarlet frock. At cold stations, it was allowed to be lined, using funds from the liquor bar or other regimental funds. It was to be worn with serge trousers, one pair of which was issued. These were similar to current Foot Guards Home Service, very dark navy with a narrow scarlet welt, and supported by braces. At cold stations the whites, which I shall deal with next, were not to be issued until the unit or the soldier moved to a hotter station.

[Muerrisch]

The India Pattern whites were a "suit of white", and three suits were issued to each soldier to keep up, the exception being at "cold" stations. The whites were the hot weather Sunday best. The collar was high, sometimes with collar badges on SNCOs. There were two breast pockets, pleated, with one button. The flap was either the simple shape to a point, or the scalloped three point version. The bottom front corners were slightly rounded, and shoulder straps, usually with gilt metal regimental identity, were fastened with a small button. Regs. are not specific about two different qualities so it is to be assumed that the generality in India, higher quality for "staff" sergeants and above, was maintained. Gold chevrons were specified for sergeants and above, and worsted for ranks and appointments below sergeant, and worsted GC badges. Chevrons often appear in photographs to have a dark backing, and this may well be scarlet for the Line. Chevrons were usually attached with hook and eye, or press stud, and shadows can sometimes be seen as a gap opens between arm and badge. This temporary fastening was for ease of cleaning: soldiering was often a dirty job, with rifle oil, dubbin, boot polish, horses and dogs never far away. Other badges were officially of metal except the crossed swords of PTIs. If this were meant to be universally applied, it failed. Possibly it was meant only for badges of appointment such as drummer, bugler LI, bandsman, pioneer and attached tradesmen such as armourers. In any case the badges for skill at arms appear as "gold" elsewhere in the 1914 regulations except for khaki drill uniforms, and whereas examples of almost every badge have been made at one time or another in gilding metal and seen in collections and photographs, to issue such would have been to go against the grain on just about every order of dress at Home and in India. Senior NCOs wore the scarlet sash, some units allowed lance-sergeants to wear this also, and named L-Sgts appear in group photographs. One suspects they were acting as full duty sergeants. Medals were worn for formal occasions.

The strict orders regarding uniform items not to be mixed and matched were not always followed, and numerous examples of photographs can be found showing soldiers wearing the white trousers and either the scarlet frock or the demi-official blue patrols.

[Muerrisch]

Now we need to turn our attention to khaki drill ...... KD.

Please can anyone contribute examples/ more examples of the following [may not all exist]

SNCO in KD wearing sash

Good view of rank/ GC badge chevrons on KD

group showing chevrons of SNCO and JNCO.

Good detail of collar and pocket design

I have a few but mostly RWF and Cheshires and we need some variety!

[Muerrisch]

Like this: RWF, late rather than early [nb pocket and collar design], China War ribbon.

Note also the corporal chevrons in worsted drab, on BOTH arms.

[FROGSMILE]

Here is a man of the Lincolnshire Regt in scarlet India Frock mixed with white trousers as mentioned and another man, this time of the Welsh Regt, in India Patt KD showing good conduct and shooting and signals proficiency badges. I hope they are of interest.

[FROGSMILE]

and Welsh Regt in KD complete with collar and pagri badges.

[FROGSMILE]

and a man of the South Wales borderers, also in India Patt KD, with a single worsted good conduct badge. There are shoulder titles but do not appear to be any collar badges.

[FROGSMILE]

and lastly a man of the King's Regt in British Patt KD, complete with khaki herringbone type chevrons and a Wolseley helmet showing the regimental title in white on scarlet cloth, often cut from old frock shoulder straps. The square cut pocket flaps and stand and fall collar are typical of the UK pattern and as seen on the RWF man above.

[Muerrisch]

Lovely contributions, many thanks. I am away Saturday to Monday inclusive so leave to others to keep the pot boiling. Just one thought: once again, collar badges not prescribed for KD either! The early versions, with short ugly mandarin collar could not have borne badges of course.

Will try to add a photo of this collar [more like 1902 than 1914] tomorrow.

[ATNOMIS]

and a man of the South Wales borderers, also in India Patt KD, with a single worsted good conduct badge. There are shoulder titles but do not appear to be any collar badges.

Who is in the picture he is holding?

[Muerrisch]

and a man of the South Wales borderers, also in India Patt KD, with a single worsted good conduct badge. There are shoulder titles but do not appear to be any collar badges.

This is the early pattern. Some historians have called the collar "mandarin". Good enough for me. A dreadful design, no possibility of turning it up to protect neck, and no smart way to have it open. The pockets are also the early design ...... much more about pockets later!

Herewith a rather famous RWF soldier c. 1904, with the early KD.

[FROGSMILE]

Who is in the picture he is holding?

I have no idea but it appears to be a cavalryman with shoulder chains and a cross belt.

[FROGSMILE]

This is the early pattern. Some historians have called the collar "mandarin". Good enough for me. A dreadful design, no possibility of turning it up to protect neck, and no smart way to have it open. The pockets are also the early design ...... much more about pockets later!

Herewith a rather famous RWF soldier c. 1904, with the early KD.

I believe both of the above pictures are also of the early pattern and only the Welch Regt man has somehow managed to squeeze collar badges onto his mandarin collar.

[pbrydon]

Frogsmile,

I have no problem with you posting pictures that I have posted elsewhere but perhaps you could at least acknowledge where they come from.

P.B.

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile,

I have no problem with you posting pictures that I have posted elsewhere but perhaps you could at least acknowledge where they come from.

P.B.

P.B. I am sorry but I do not keep a record of where photos come from, it would be impossible with the number I have and the life that I lead. Most of these I have posted in this thread are in the public domain and from a well known website. I don't even know the picture to which you are referring. No offence is meant. We are not publishers who have to 'acknowledge' every image we show, but members of a mutual interest hobby and we gather here to exchange knowledge. I give freely of what I have and expect nothing in return, including 'acknowledgement' of my own images. For me the pleasure in exchanging information with fellow enthusiasts and the way one grows is its own reward. If you manage to file every single image you keep with a reference of who it came from then I am very surprised. I only copy photos that serve to illustrate a particular type of dress or equipment because that is my interest. The images are not copyrighted and I imagine many of us copy photos of especial personal interest. If you really do feel so very strongly about this then I can only suggest you do not post your own images, but let those of us who enjoy the free exchange to do so.

[FROGSMILE]

And unusually here is a soldier from the Notts&Derby in KD jacket wearing oxford mixture trousers complete with red side stripe.

[Muerrisch]

And unusually here is a soldier from the Notts&Derby in KD jacket wearing oxford mixture trousers complete with red side stripe.

Now that is extraordinary! How did he get past the gate NCO on his way out? And who would choose thick hot sweaty trousers with a KD top!

Superb!

[Graham Stewart]

The images are not copyrighted and I imagine many of us copy photos of especial personal interest. If you really do feel so very strongly about this then I can only suggest you do not post your own images, but let those of us who enjoy the free exchange to do so.

Oh be very careful with this one - I think I would be correct in saying that although the original photographer may no longer exist and the original owner of the photo may have passed away, then I think the current owner may have the copyright. If you were to take copies of photo's from someones collection, posted on a Forum and then produce a written work of your own from them, then I fear you could be in deep trouble.

I think this has been discussed before within the GWF, but I can't recall the outcome, but it is a touchy subject, especially amongst those with photo-collections, who often pull the plug if their images are mis-used.

Recently a GWF member asked permission to reproduce one of my photo's posted on this Forum for inclusion in a publication he is producing and as such I said "yes" and as such will receive due acknowledgement. I also had to ask permission from a family to pass a photo onto Grumpy for his files, as legally they were still the owners.

[FROGSMILE]

Oh be very careful with this one - I think I would be correct in saying that although the original photographer may no longer exist and the original owner of the photo may have passed away, then I think the current owner may have the copyright. If you were to take copies of photo's from someones collection, posted on a Forum and then produce a written work of your own from them, then I fear you could be in deep trouble.

I think this has been discussed before within the GWF, but I can't recall the outcome, but it is a touchy subject, especially amongst those with photo-collections, who often pull the plug if their images are mis-used.

Recently a GWF member asked permission to reproduce one of my photo's posted on this Forum for inclusion in a publication he is producing and as such I said "yes" and as such will receive due acknowledgement. I also had to ask permission from a family to pass a photo onto Grumpy for his files, as legally they were still the owners.

I agree with all that you say regarding "producing a written work of my own" and would never attempt to "publish" anything. My posts on mutual interest forums like this is as far as I have any intention of going. I don't think I have ever given any other impression. I am not an author like you and Grumpy, but strictly an amateur. Nevertheless, I continue to share freely all that I have and hope that there are at least some that appreciate my contribution to this hobby of ours and do not take offence at the odd photo that I might unwittingly re-post. I have absolutely no idea which image is being referred to and I am not going to lose any sleep over it. Life is too short. In the final analysis it's just a photograph and I personally prefer to focus on the brave man in it and what his appearance tells us.

[FROGSMILE]

Now that is extraordinary! How did he get past the gate NCO on his way out? And who would choose thick hot sweaty trousers with a KD top!

Superb!

It does seem a strange mixture of dress and I have not seen any others like it.

[squirrel]

[quote name='Graham Stewart' timestamp='1309702220' post='1612540'.

Recently a GWF member asked permission to reproduce one of my photo's posted on this Forum for inclusion in a publication he is producing and as such I said "yes" and as such will receive due acknowledgement. I also had to ask permission from a family to pass a photo onto Grumpy for his files, as legally they were still the owners.

I had to obtain permisssion from a family via the museum and local paper to pass a photograph on to Grumpy - thought that I would check beforehand and glad that I did so.

[Muerrisch]

a nos moutons, gentlemen.

Herwith RWF Hongkong just after quelling Boxers, early pattern KD frock but what I shall call scalloped pocket flaps. This is all but certainly an Indian issue. Call it 1901.

[Muerrisch]

A poser. Is in RWF albums at Caernarfon no useful caption, c. 1905 or later [helmet].

What do we have? Apparently 4 chevrons, point down. Collar and tie on an NCO!

Riding boots!

And more!

Not at all sure he is RWF: may be an attached riding instructor for the MI section. Might just be the transport sergeant. Definitely not run of the mill.

[Muerrisch]

Sgt RWF Delhi c. 1905, with scarlet sash and gold or worsted chevrons. Even this smart man can make nothing of the appalling collar.

[FROGSMILE]

A poser. Is in RWF albums at Caernarfon no useful caption, c. 1905 or later [helmet].

What do we have? Apparently 4 chevrons, point down. Collar and tie on an NCO!

Riding boots!

And more!

Not at all sure he is RWF: may be an attached riding instructor for the MI section. Might just be the transport sergeant. Definitely not run of the mill.

Very unusual and in a warrant officer/officer 'style' of dress, especially the jacket. I can only assume a First Class Staff Serjeant grade, soon to be re classified as a warrant officer.