Easy Bavarian regimental markings :-)

[Rafal1971]

I looked at the genwiki. In two Prusian reserve foot artillery regiments, each battalion had a park company in one there was a single company

No rule, but Trajan's suggestion and Robert's explanation sounds most likely

 

Best Rafal

[Rafal1971]

 

Gentlemen

Maybe the 1914-18 combat trail explains the use of the 1871 bayonet... below

From GenWiki: campaigns, battles, etc 1900 : China Expedition 1903-1906 : Southwest Africa Mission 1914-1918 : 1st World War

[bert.f]

Hello .Trajan.

The source of this information is my notes, i have been writing down, German markings for severaly years,

As you wrote " this is a pre GW marking"

[AndyBsk]

Best source would be origin bavarian unit history, personally i doubt that the Park Kompanies were numbered on start of raising of units, as there existed firstly only 2 Batallions each with 4.Kompanies/Batteries. Later added the III.Batallion. 

It is one of most real possibilities to this time, but it should be confirmed on real one stamp manuals or history of unit.

[bert.f]

41 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

Best source would be origin bavarian unit history, personally i doubt that the Park Kompanies were numbered on start of raising of units, as there existed firstly only 2 Batallions each with 4.Kompanies/Batteries. Later added the III.Batallion. 

It is one of most real possibilities to this time, but it should be confirmed on real one stamp manuals or history of unit.

you can find information without a problem in German literature on the subject

[trajan]

14 hours ago, bert.f said:

Hello, Andy, Park companies 5-10-15

So that would indeed be as a I suggested earlier, Königlich Bayerische 2. FussArtillerie-Regiment Park Kompagnie 15 Waffe 76?

Julian

[bert.f]

Hello. Trajan

In my opinion, yes. 15 corresponds to the Park-company of the third battalion .

similar example from the book made by A.Wacker and J.Gortz

[AndyBsk]

Manual 1897 is written "Die Waffen der beiden Park Kompagnien eines Fußartillerie Regiments erhalten die Bezeichnung als 9. oder 10. Kompagnie;
     die Waffen der Park Kompagnien eines aus drei Bataillonen bestehenden  Fußartillerie Regiments desgl. als 13., 14. oder 15. Kompagnie;"

Also opinion of 5-10-15 is not correct. The 15. kompanie  Park Kompanie is for III.Batallion as corectly declared.

There exist a book about KB2AFR.

Edited 30 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[bert.f]

40 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

Manual 1897 is written "Die Waffen der beiden Park Kompagnien eines Fußartillerie Regiments erhalten die Bezeichnung als 9. oder 10. Kompagnie;
     die Waffen der Park Kompagnien eines aus drei Bataillonen bestehenden  Fußartillerie Regiments desgl. als 13., 14. oder 15. Kompagnie;"

Also opinion of 5-10-15 is not correct. The 15. kompanie is for III.Batallion as corectly declared. There exist a book about KB2FR.

B.2.A.F.15.76 - " 2 Foot Artillery regiment, Park company of the III. Battalions, weapon nr.76"

If you know another meaning of the stamp, please write

[Rafal1971]

Robercie,

Coś tu nie gra z tą numeracją 5-10-15 (pl)

Something not very good with the numbering of B.K.2.A.F Park Kompanie 5 -10 -15

Quote from

https://forum.ahnenforschung.net/

in der Militärstammrolle zu ………first name and last name……….. Süll heißt es, dass er zur 1. Park-Kompanie des 2. K.B. Fußartillerie Regiments gehörte. In der Spalte "Mitgemachte Gefechte" heißt es: 2.2.1916 - 29.7.1916 Schlacht vor Verdun. Für mich wäre nun interessant zu wissen, wo diese Einheit vor Verdun stand. Ich habe schon gegoogelt, konnte aber nichts Brauchbares finden.

in the military roll of ….first name and last name….. it says that he was assigned to the 1st Park Company of the 2nd K.B. Foot Artillery Regiment belonged. In the column "Participated in battles" it says: 02/02/1916 - 07/29/1916 Battle of Verdun. It would be interesting for me to know where this unit was before Verdun. I've already googled but couldn't find anything useful.

And something for trajan

I.B 2 BAY.FSS.A.R

Photo from drakecollection

It's a shame but this isn't my scabbard.

[Rafal1971]

and

Maybe someone have this book. I saw a few pages and I think that we can find answer for my question.

 

Handbuch 1914-1918 : Fußartillerie, Band 1

Dr. Jürgen Kraus, Hartwig Busche

ISBN: 978-3-902526-92-2 

[trajan]

3 hours ago, Rafal1971 said:

And something for trajan

I.B 2 BAY.FSS.A.R

 

Interesting! Correct for artillery - square-front helmets and Kar.98, with S.98/05 so 1915+

I freely admit I have never come across that 'FSS' before. Is it perhaps for 'Fuss / Foot', that abbreviation being used for this in WW2? So 'First Battalion, 2nd Bavarian Foot Artillery Regiment'? I am very happy to be corrected!

Julian

[Rafal1971]

Behind the scenes, Robert/Bert explained what the numbering was all about.

Visible on the scan from the book - the middle line of A.Wacker and J.Gortz no.  No. 10 company in the abbreviated designation in the development changes into the 2

Each of the 3 Battalions in the 2nd K.B.A.F. had his own P.K. 1st Battalion - 4 Companies/Batteries + 1 Park Company. So in the 1st Battalion P.K. was 1 in the Regiment, but there was also 1 Battery/Company with Cannons, in order not to write all the correct designation B.2.A.F.P.K.1.... it was found that it would be easier to use continuous numbering in marking weapons. Hence, on the bayonet of the 1st Park Kompanie from the 1st Battalion (4 + 1) it will have the number 5, 2 P.K. in the 2nd Battalion there will be (5 companies of the 1st Battalion + 4 Batteries / Companies + 1 Park Company (the second one because in the 2nd Battalion) will be easier 5+4+1) will have a marking on the bayonet in continuous numbering 10 etc.

I hope that has become understandable :-)    UFFFF ;-)

[Rafal1971]

We are happy for you and I think we can close this topic.

I am satisfied with the information.

Information bonus from DERAKE under this photo, that the Bavarians did not use Artillery Kugel Pickelhaube in the initial period - as you can see in the attached photo.

Best regards Raf

[trajan]

56 minutes ago, Rafal1971 said:

We are happy for you and I think we can close this topic.

I am satisfied with the information.

Information bonus from DERAKE under this photo, that the Bavarians did not use Artillery Kugel Pickelhaube in the initial period - as you can see in the attached photo.

Best regards Raf

Many thanks one and all for a very illuminating discussion and eventual decipherement. What an easy one that was, just as the thread title implied!!!

Julian

[AndyBsk]

IB. 2FSS A.R. is for 1.Batallion, 2. Fuss Artillerie Regimentes.

About the 5-10-15 for Park Kompanie is in Manual for marking 1897 declared that by II.Batallions each 4 Batery were marked with nr.9 PK for I.Batalion. and 10.PK for II.Bat.

by 3 Batallion Regiment of 4 Bateries each are stamped for PK, 13 for 1.Bat. 14 for 2.Bat. and 15 for 3.Batallion.  

Anyway i dont have the bavarian unit manual or here the mentioned books. so it could be in real different because a bavarian unit.

From the avialable pages on internet from the book of internet, the KB 2.AFR had 1914 only 2 batallions of Festungsartillerie, also from this would be clear the S1871 was anywhere in depot with similar marking and probably not involved in WW1.

Edited 30 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[charlie2]

4 hours ago, Rafal1971 said:

I saw a few pages and I think that we can find answer for my question.

There is a history of KB 2.FuAR starting on page 97 https://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/index.php?id=6&tx_dlf[id]=18318&tx_dlf[page]=1

Charlie

[Rafal1971]

20 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

IB. 2FSS A.R. is for 1.Batallion, 2. Fuss Artillerie Regimentes.

About the 5-10-15 for Park Kompanie is in Manual for marking 1897 declared that by II.Batallions each 4 Batery were marked with nr.9 PK for I.Batalion. and 10.PK for II.Bat.

by 3 Batallion Regiment of 4 Bateries each are stamped for PK, 13 for 1.Bat. 14 for 2.Bat. and 15 for 3.Batallion.  

Anyway i dont have the bavarian unit manual or here the mentioned books. so it could be in real different because a bavarian unit.

From the avialable pages on internet from the book of internet, the KB 2.AFR had 1914 only 2 batallions of Festungsartillerie, also from this would be clear the S1871 was anywhere in depot with similar marking and probably not involved in WW1.

Frm Genwiki

Kgl. Bayer. 2. Fußartillerie-Regiment

III Batalion 

Stab und Komp. 2, 3, 4 : ab 01.01.1873 GERMERSHEIM ; ab 01.10.1873 METZ
1. Komp. : ab 01.01.1873 LANDAU ; ab 01.05.1873 GERMERSHEIM ; ab 15.11.1873 METZ
II. Bataillon : ab 01.01.1873 GERMERSHEIM ; ab 01.10.1912 als I. Bataillon / KB Fuss-Art 3 umgenannt
III. Bataillon : 01.10.1893 in METZ aufgestellt ; ab 01.10.1912 als II. Bataillon / KB Fuss-Art 2 umgenannt 
III. Bataillon (neu) : 27.09.1916 in METZ aufgestellt.

[AndyBsk]

Yes genwiki confirms that in 1914 it was not III.batallion by this regiment. Same is in the book about Fussartillerie.

Similar to book of Wacker, i assume he speaks about rifle from 1891, in that time didnt existed III.batallion as it was raised 1893, so the 10.kompanie was a Park Companie of II.Batallion and 9.kompanie was a PK for 1.Batallion, this is exactly like should be from german manual stamped.

The card is located at Metz in october 1914 which is most real a base location of the unit,also used for training and supply of units into field,  about the balls on helmet, its covered most real with wrong covers, avialable larger picture of the card?

Edited 30 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

Die K. B. Schwere Artillerie im Großen Kriege 1914-1918

 

If you read "schwabache alphabet" maybe there is information here.

AND

15 Park Kompanie in Landhwer regiment 3 page 674

[AndyBsk]

As You could see there was a lot of renumbering, mainly in war period.

the last page to sample:

11.Park Kompanie II.batalions des Res.Fuss Art.Regt nr.3 in november 1915 changed to Fuss Art.Battery nr.578

12.Park Kompanie Landwehr Fussartillerie Batallion nr.1 same period changed to Fuss Art.Batterues nr. 582 and 583

13.Park Kompanie Landwehr Fussartillerie Batallion nr.2  changed in 1918 into Art.Park Companie nr.5

The info on first page is about raising of III.batallion of 2AFR  looks like started life in Metz in september 1916, from 1., 8. and 9. Batterie. So there was in war each unit rennumbered is not as same as in peace time. As mentioned already in top of wiki, Fuss Artillerie Regiment were used per Batallions or even by Batteries for different Korps units. Never fighted as a complete units on one place.

 Im Ersten Weltkrieg wurde die Fußartillerie anfangs bataillons-, später sogar nur batterieweise eingesetzt. Ganz selten kam es zu einem regimentsweisen Einsatz. Erst durch die Reorganisation unter Hindenburg und Ludendorff wurden die Einheiten wieder bataillonsweise eingesetzt.

Edited 30 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

https://wiki.genealogy.net/Fußartillerie_(WK1)

To understand a Foot Artillery, by start of war existed only 57 Batallions, which were most real minimum 10x increased in the war period, so You probably have read of a lot information and wout knowledge of german language it would be very difficult. I assume Wiki have only partly information there, so a good book from german source would be a good investment in that case.

Excellent link was provided by Charlie2, history of all heavy artillery in WW1.

To the information now, i believe that Your piece S1871 is a III.batallion of K.B.2.A.F.R period 1893-1912 used with corespodent with Gew88 rifles used since 1890/1 in Bavaria. Bert and Julian corectly deciphered that is 15. Park Kompanie part of III batallion. I assume already post 1902/3 was the equipment changed to Gew98 configuration. Since that it probably ended in storage or was outsaled. Is there date on the bayonet? Is the bayonet bavarian proofed?

Edited 31 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

To sum up:

 

Nothing is certain with this 15...

 

 Thanks. Maybe something sometime... 

[AndyBsk]

When You download the text of the excellent Charlie link, You will see there are not serialed a Park kompanies of 1. and 2. Batall. of WW1, see pages 101 and 114 of the original book,

III. Batallion was raised in 1916 with different Batteries from I. and II. Batallion (1,8 and 9) so as mentioned before in the german manual 1897 is already clear that Your piece marked to 15.Park Kompanie of III.Batallion could be only prewar unit, and this from 1893 as the III.Batallion was raised to change of weapons to Gew98 systems by Bavaria, or max to 1912,when the III.Batallion was moved to other Regiment. 

[trajan]

16 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

Your piece marked to 15.Park Kompanie of III.Batallion could be only prewar unit, and this from 1893 as the III.Batallion was raised to change of weapons to Gew98 systems by Bavaria, or max to 1912,when the III.Batallion was moved to other Regiment. 

As I have said all along, a pre-WW1 marking...

Julian