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Easy Bavarian regimental markings :-)


Rafal1971

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Hello, 
B.2.AF.15.76 on 1871 bayonet
I know it's a bit of an easy question but ... 
Bavarian Feld Artylery 2nd Regiment, Battery 15th      or
15 batterie in the regiment in the 2nd Bavarian Field Artillery
 According to my information, there is no 15th AF Regiment in the Bavarian army and the more 15 batteries or I'm lazy in the search
:-))))))))
 
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It should be the Koniglich Bayerische 2. FussArtillerie-Regiment , (Metz , II Bayerisches Armee Korps) ... with Batterie Nr.15 and Waffe Nr.76

Cheers, SS 
 

Edited by shippingsteel
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Nice marking anyway this unit  should be probably wartime as the 15. Battery should be outside of III. Batallion.

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Königlich Bayerisches 2. Fußartillerie-Regiment – Wikipedia

 

No information about 15 batteries. Only 3 Battalions of four batteries, i.e. the 12th battery had the last number. Maybe you're right, Andy, that the battery was built during the war.

If anyone has any info on when and where the 15th was formed

 

Thanks

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On 26/01/2023 at 05:10, shippingsteel said:

It should be the Koniglich Bayerische 2. FussArtillerie-Regiment , (Metz , II Bayerisches Armee Korps) ... with Batterie Nr.15 and Waffe Nr.76

Cheers, SS 
 

I can't find any evidence for 15 batteries either.

However, Bavarian 1891 regulations - appropriate for an S.1871 weapon - suggest it could be Koniglich Bayerische 2. FussArtillerie-Regiment Park Kompagnie 15 Waffe 76. Did they have that many Park Kompagnie though?

Trajan

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For Park Companie would be so high number not typical, possible in war the unit could be raised, as in genwiki was mentioned they used Foot Artillery per Bateries or per Batallions. When is not in Bavarian regulation exactly named. The structure in war mainly in artillery was changed. Maybe some bavarian collectors could help on it.

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Well, either way 15 is a high number for a sub-unit of a Regiment! But, I would think, perhaps more likely for a real-echelon unit that than imaging a sudden change in batteries from 4 or so to 15 in one regiment.

And in any case, as it is an S.1871, I doubt it would have been used in a front-line unit in WW1. Just my own feeling, but while I know of some of the older pionier-type weapons still being used in WW2, I can't recall off-hand seeing an S.71 in the hands of a regular unit at that time.

I won't argue the point, but the marking is an odd one...

Julian

Edited by trajan
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It must be remembered that the S.1871 was brought out of storage at the start of the War and issued widely with the Gewehr 88, which was still in common use and in very large numbers at that time. Whilst the S.1871 was mostly found amongst secondary units, possible front-line usage should not be discounted as the Gewehr 88 certainly was a "front-line" weapon especially during the earlier years of the War.

An interesting thread on this subject on the Gunboards forum here ...

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/how-much-action-did-the-gewehr-88-see-in-german-service-in-wwi.1071823/

Also this photo showing battlefield salvage by the French of the Gewehr 88 ... (Image courtesy of JPS in above linked thread)

Cheers, SS 

598831467_FrenchBattlefieldSalvage-Gew88sR2.jpg.6e4af47b295a6ff27e58d5a644ea3d07.jpg

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The using of Gew88 S in the front line could be real, anyway more real with S71/84 bayonets as with this long S1871 bayonets (bavarian preffered S71/84), as mainly in trenches were similar long bayonets not practical and were quickly removed by 31cm long blade ASG88/98 type. As mentioned by Trajan using of long S1871 i would expect in second line units, there exist evidently pcs marked with same unit but on S98nA bayonets, so the change was done already 1903-5 by Bavarians to new Gew98, possible is that piece was serialed to training units as are Recruiten Depot or Ersatz Batallions?. The unit is stamped with proper size. Dont looks like something was removed or is under it. Anyway there is a book about this regiment on inet.

Edited by AndyBsk
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There is an explanation for this designation.

If the gunsmith made a mistake and we are dealing with the Bavarian 2nd Field Artillery Regiment, according to Wikipedia, in 1841 the 15th company / battery was established in it

Königlich Bayerisches 2. Feldartillerie-Regiment „Horn“ – Wikipedia

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rafal1971 said:

 

There is an explanation for this designation.

If the gunsmith made a mistake and we are dealing with the Bavarian 2nd Field Artillery Regiment, according to Wikipedia, in 1841 the 15th company / battery was established in it

Königlich Bayerisches 2. Feldartillerie-Regiment „Horn“ – Wikipedia

The page mentions a 15th company in 1841, but gives no further information. 

I can't find anything else to indicate the existence of a B2FA15th battery in WW1, but there is an S.71 mS marked as 'B.2.A.R.10.246.' For what its is worth, according to Bavarian DVE 281, issued in 1914, 17 July 1910. I believe, Sanitatskompagnie, Reserve-Sanitatskompagnie, Feldlazerette, and Reserve-Feldlazerette were "erforderlichen S.71 m.S sind tunlichst solche mit Sägerrücken". 

Julian 

Edited by trajan
Corrected document issue date
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11 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

It must be remembered that the S.1871 was brought out of storage at the start of the War and issued widely with the Gewehr 88, which was still in common use and in very large numbers at that time. ...

I do acknowledge that issue of old weaponry to secondary units in the GW in my post prior to yours SS. And this is in fact authorised in a Berlin Order issued 22 December 1914, that Gew. 88 and even Gew 71 be issued if necessary to newly formed Reserve units, 'moeglichst mit aufplantzbaren Seitengewher'. But we are dealing in this case with a weapon issued to a Bavarian unit. And Bavaria had replaced the S.71 with the S.71/84 long before the immediate pre-war period (as AndyB notes). Moreover, I do wonder how many Gew.88 were knocking around in Bavaria in 1914, Yes, they were still around in the form of Gew 98/05 in 1908, according to order no. K.M.E 11944.17 that April. And yes, the Bavarians could well have had S,71 in stores in 1914, as they are listed  on Bavarian DVE 281 of 17 July 1910. But between 1911 and 1913 Bavaria had sufficient numbers of Gew 98 these were already being issued to the Landsturm Feld-Artillerie, as well as Telegraph units, in both cases with the S.98

This is my main problem with how this marking is being interpreted (apart from the problematic '15'). Would an S.71 have been issued to a front-line unit in 1914-1918 - not the least because even the Bavarian Landsturm FA regiments units had them long before 1914. Apart from which, as I understand it, the Bavarian artillery used for preference until at least 1917, when withdrawn from service, the Pionier-Fascinmesser 71, not the S.71. That aside, I would just add that on 17 May 1918, the Bavarian War Ministry issued order Nr. 117788.K 4, which stipulated that those S.71 held by 'Officers, technical high scools, etc.', be submitted for metal salvage, and as this was not addressed to the army's depots, it could  mean that the army no longer had any examples of these for salvage purposes. 

I am of course not denying the possibility of 'the exception that tests the rule'. I would simply take a more straighforward interpretation - this is a pre-GW marking, according to the Bavarian regulations, and not necessarily for a battery, although that is possible, but for another sub-unit.

Trajan

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A note on the numbers of S.71 available for Bavaria in 1914-1918. A report of 29 May 1917 (KA, MKr.4011) notes that there were 4506 standard S.71 in stock with 159 sawback versions.

Julian

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The second F normally is for Fuss Artillerie, anyway it could be that F is a different part of marking, as sample 2.Feld Artillerie Regiment , Fuhrpark der 15.Batterie and weapon nr.?? In the listing of 2.AR is mentioned since 1848 they had 15. Companies.

Secondly there existed a Reserve Fuss Artillerie Regt Nr.2 possible the units could be serialed to wrong company as for Reserve?

Same is possible the F is not fully stamped letter E teoretically for Ersatz? I dont see there a lower foot.

By Bavarians is very often to see the unit stamp are not correct on the manual too. It was a responsibility of armorer.

Edited by AndyBsk
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6 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

Some lovely wartime photos of the S1871 attached to the Gewehr 88 to be found on the net .... including this one previously posted on the GWF by member Cnock.

Dear SS,

For the record, there is no dispute that the S.71 was issued to reserve units in the GW, as with this chappie you post, in the Hanseatic Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 75. I even mentioned above the original order concerning this practice. Issued  22 December 1914, as Nr. 1769/14. geh. A2, and titled 'Bewaffnung der neuasufzustellenden Reservetruppen', the relevant paragraph 2 reads: 'Für die übringen Formationen können erforderlıchenfalls (a), anstelle von Schusswaffen 98 - Schusswaffen 88, Beutewaffen, Gewehre 71 - möglichst mit aufplantzen Seitengewehr geliefert werden'.

However, as I have already pointed out, Bavaria clearly had enough Gew.98 around to arm its reserve units with these before 1914 - which is not to say that newly raised reserve, etc., formations or specialist units were not given Gew 88 or other rifles in 1914+. On the other hand, it is well known (or should be!) that on 12 August 1914, all those  IS.69 in Bavarian artillery depots (stress added), over 21,000 in all, began to be rehilted and refashioned to beome suitable for the Gew.98, a process completed by that December, these refurbished bayonets being classed as S.69/98. This act again implies there were lots of Gew.98 around in Bavaria in 1914.

BUT, to put us back on topic, I just find it rather doubtful that a Bavarian front line artillery regiment would have been issued with S.71 for the GW, as is ostensibly the case with the one under discussion here...

Trajan 

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The photos clearly confirms this combination Gew88 and S1871, unfortunally it could be not confirmed that was used on first front line, most probably only in few cases, as mostly the pictures could be not dated or exactly located. By Bavaria was this certainly not a rule, more real similar combination was used by train and school units, Guarding and other second line units.

To sample the presented bavarian soldier of Drakegoodman, in reality i assume the rifle is not his but was used only for photographing, note the new ammo pouches for 8x57 cartridges in Mauser clips, same as Gew88 is in unreworked older configuration (hole in magazine) for older Mannlicher type clips, and the soldier doesnt have a S1871 leather scabbard on side. Similar photos could be very tricky mainly the studios and soldiers photos before real combat. Similar photos were mainly done before going to front (it could be last photo of the soldier sending home), so it looks much better with stacked long blade bayonet as wout the firearm.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/52652083458/

To sample a guarding unit of Uhlan in Holland certainly the combination of S1871 on Kar98Az would be not real. By excellen Drakegoodmans library many similar combination to find.

Edited by AndyBsk
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44 minutes ago, AndyBsk said:

... To sample the presented bavarian soldier of Drakegoodman, in reality i assume the rifle is not his but was used only for photographing, note the new ammo pouches for 8x57 cartridge,same as Gew88 is in unreworked older configuration for older Mannlicher type clips, and the soldier doesnt have a S1871 scabbard on side. Similar photos could be very tricky mainly the studios and soldiers photos before real combat.

Well spotted AndyB! But I don't see in any case how he can be identified as Bavarian as the card is unmarked and there is nothing visible about his uniform to indicate he is Bavarian other than - possibly - he is wearing what may be a M.1886 pickelhaube with a square front to the visor, worn by some Bavarian units up to 1915. That aside, Drake Goodman himself noted: "This Infanterist is in full marching order and is armed with an obsolete Gew 88 rifle fitted with a S71 bayonet giving me the impression he may be from a Landwehr formation." 

Julian

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Here is another nice shot of the S1871 definitely in use with the Bavarians deployed in Belgium on the right of the Westfront very early in the war ... some nice info added in the notes as well. Location is Antwerp fortresses.

https://flic.kr/p/9XUPQg

Cheers, SS 

Edited by shippingsteel
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1 hour ago, shippingsteel said:

Here is another nice shot of the S1871 definitely in use with the Bavarians deployed in Belgium on the right of the Westfront very early in the war ... some nice info added in the notes as well. Location is Antwerp fortresses.

This is rather like flogging a dead horse with regard to this topic, :blink:as nobody would dispute that rear echelon units could/would have obsolete weapons, as confirmed by that official order I have already posted! And in this case the caption actually says, Landwehr, so third ranking among the German and Bavarian units, after Regulars/Reserve and Landsturm, for occupation and security duties, not a front line combat unit like a regular artillery unit, as the S.71 we are concerned with in this topic is so marked. But many thanks anyway SS for the photograph as it shows a nice mix of M.1886 (e.g., the chaps kneeling at both ends of the second row) and later Bavarian pickelhauben.

Trajan

 

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2.B.A.F "It is initially divided  in to two battalions of four company. On October 1. 1893, the III Battalion formed and companies renamed batteries  11. December 1908"

Three battalions of four companies (batteries) plus thre park-companies

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This explanation could be real when no additional letter of stamping was added for them into designation, same as when the Park companies were serialed since 13-15.

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Many, many thanks Bert! So as I originally thought and suggested on 26 01, marked according to the Bavarian 1891 regulations, as might be expected for a S.71. Can / will you provide a source for that information please?

Julian

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