RaySearching Posted 21 January , 2023 Share Posted 21 January , 2023 Lets recap Cadet, Sydney Savile Mercier commissiond 2nd Lt 16th August 1917 aged about 30 relinquished his commission 23rd Jan 1919 due to ill health. applied for Silver war badge 25th July 1919 died 24th Jan 1920 There is no officers file for Sydney at Kew (I have searched all officers with surnames starting with Mer*) There is no MIC or medal roll entry in respect of Sydney which indicates he may never have served in a theater of war Its possible that the entry on his headstone that he served in France Egypt and Gallipoli may be a bit of "Guilding of the Lily" Penfoldisking would it be possible to post a photo of the headstone Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfoldisking Posted 21 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 21 January , 2023 Share Posted 21 January , 2023 Cough, Cough - "Herts Yeomanry with whom he served in Egypt and Gallipoli" - I think we have a link to the discharged Sergeant 934 Sydney P Mercier. Discharged could even mean when he was discharged from his enlistment in order to take a commission. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 21 January , 2023 Share Posted 21 January , 2023 Does the headstone not show age 37 not 33 ? back to the drawing board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 21 January , 2023 Share Posted 21 January , 2023 42 minutes ago, PRC said: Sergeant 934 Sydney P Mercier. Medel roll no indication discharged to commission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 21 January , 2023 Share Posted 21 January , 2023 What is the word before Herts Yeomanry on the memorial ? Penfoldisking is there any other inscriptions on the other three faces of the grave marker ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 21 January , 2023 Admin Share Posted 21 January , 2023 9 minutes ago, RaySearching said: What is the word before Herts Yeomanry on the memorial ? Penfoldisking is there any other inscriptions on the other three faces of the grave marker ? Ray Looks like Formerly to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 21 January , 2023 Share Posted 21 January , 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, RaySearching said: What is the word before Herts Yeomanry on the memorial ? Formerly? Edit: And Michelle thinks so too! Edited 21 January , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 21 January , 2023 Share Posted 21 January , 2023 1 hour ago, RaySearching said: Does the headstone not show age 37 not 33 ? Can't be sure but I think thats just the way the bottom half of the 3 has worn away - look at Whom in the top line ("Whon") and the A in Jan. in the date of death. I suspect the "m" in Formerly has also suffered. We have no other candidate for the death of a Sydney \ Sidney Mercier who died in 1920 +/- 2 years. The age of the Sidney who did die in 1920 - 33 in January 1920 , 26 in October 1912 when he married and a Q3 birth registration probably closely align. @Penfoldisking - looks like you've been editing some of your posts to include some of the information that has either teased out out by contributors or I can only assume was known to you and you chose not to share earlier. This forum is a very collaborative place and is totally dependant on the goodwill of those who give freely of their time and knowledge. Can I simply request you give us a full statement of what you know about this man so we stop wasting time validating what is already known. Thanks, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfoldisking Posted 22 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2023 A second photo showing words lower down a bit clearer. The age is 33, they lower part of the last 3 is worn. It clearly states Formerly Herts Yeomanry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfoldisking Posted 22 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2023 The medal role "RaySearching" has added a photo of clarifies that it is not my man. A couple of reasons: 1. Looks like a regular soldier by his Regimental number being so low and a Sgt. So was probably already serving at the start of the war. 2. Clearly Sydney with a Y not and and second initial P not S 3. The date on the medal role is Oct 1920 and its for a Victory medal as a Sgt. If it was my man at the end of the war he would get a Victory medal as a 2nd Lt 4. My man had relinquished his commission due to ill health 1 year earlier as a 2nd Lt 5. My man had already died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Agreed Sgt 934 is not our man I think the fact that his late wife is interred beside Lt Sydney S Mercier confirms that we have the correct man the anomally is he has no record of any medal entitlement, that I can find Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 His Silver war badge roll entry provides no additional usefull information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 11 hours ago, RaySearching said: Penfoldisking is there any other inscriptions on the other three faces of the grave marker ? ? ? ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 On 21/01/2023 at 10:15, Penfoldisking said: I have found a Sidney Saville Mercier who served as a 2nd Lt South Notts Hussars and died on the same day in Paignton in Devon. My grave is in Lockerely Hants? A notice in Western Morning News 27 January 1920 https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000329%2f19200127%2f003&stringtohighlight=sydney saville mercier has those details. Leaving Paignton on Wednesday for interment in Lockerley on Thursday George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfoldisking Posted 22 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2023 George, could you please cut and paste that entry as I cancelled my find my past subscription. Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Penfoldisking said: The medal role "RaySearching" has added a photo of clarifies that it is not my man. A couple of reasons: 1. Looks like a regular soldier by his Regimental number being so low and a Sgt. So was probably already serving at the start of the war. 2. Clearly Sydney with a Y not and and second initial P not S 3. The date on the medal role is Oct 1920 and its for a Victory medal as a Sgt. If it was my man at the end of the war he would get a Victory medal as a 2nd Lt 4. My man had relinquished his commission due to ill health 1 year earlier as a 2nd Lt 5. My man had already died 1. Hertfordshire Yeomanry were Territorials, not Regulars. Pre-war Territorials were often treated as social clubs by aspiring working class \ lower middle class - like a Draper. Yeomanry in particular had a greater social cachet than TF Infantry and smacked of upward mobility. One of the Herts Yeomanry Squadrons were based in Watford - as was Sidney Sackville Edit 23/01/23 13.02 Saville Mercier according to his 1912 Marriage Cerificate. To have served in the Territorials "Sydney P. Mercier" would have had to have a residence in the county, but no obvious candidate on the 1911 Census. Unfortunately Sidney Sackville Edit 23/01/23 13.02 Saville Mercier and his wife don't appear to have had children - at least not as far as the birth records for England & Wales are concerned, so we can't identify where the couple were living from that route. Once he reached 24, if he was the head of the household then may well have qualified for the vote, although where you would track down the relevant electoral registers for the Watford area I don't know. And of course absence of his name doesn't mean he wasn't there - if he was living in someone elses household then, unless he owned property elsewhere, he wouldn't have had the vote. 2. Sidney and Sydney are used interchangeably just for Sidney Sackville Edit 23/01/23 13.03 Saville Mercier, let alone in general usage. Medals rolls and Silver War Badge Rolls are riddled with mistakes. As far as I can see the actual medal roll for 934 Acting Sergeant Sydney P Mercier doesn't tell us what his middle name actually is. Add into the mix that the headstone tells us that he was also known as "Freddy" and suddenly we have the possibility that the "P" was a mis-reading of a handwritten "S" or even an "F". Names and ages weren't verified when a man signed up, so no reason, for example, why he couldn't have signed up for the Hertfordshire Yeomaney as Sydney Frederick \ Fredrick \ Fred. 3, 4 & 5: The rank on the Victory Medal and British War Medal was the highest rank served at in a Theatre of War. While we don't know when and with whom he served in France - (and note, may be missing it, but not seeing that referred to on the headstone),- but the only unit of the South Nottinghamshire Hussars that ended up in France did so in the summer of 1918 where it was converted to a Machine Gun Corps Battalion. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/nottinghamshire-yeomanry-south-nottinghamshire-hussars/ So good possibility he never saw overseas service after being commissioned, and so this would not be reflected on his medals. As an officer he, or his next of kin if he was deceased, would have had to apply for the medals. An other rank just had them sent automatically to their last known address. An October 1920 dispatch date is pretty bog standard. Assuming for a moment Sidney Sackville Edit 23/01/23 13.04 Saville and Sydney P. were one and the same, if the records office dealing with the Hertfordshire Yeomanry weren't aware that he had been commissioned, let alone that he had died, he would have just been one of thousands to be processed. It may still turn out you are right, but I don't think based on the evidence produced so far that you can say with any degree of confidence that they are categorically not the same individual. Personal opinion - others may differ. Cheers, Peter Edited 22 January , 2023 by PRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfoldisking Posted 22 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2023 The grave is a bit strange in that the inscription face away from the grave. I only found it as a volunteer gardner had cleared bushes away from the top of the grave. There is nothing on any of the other faces of the stones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfoldisking Posted 22 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2023 He relinquished his commission in Jan 1919 The London Gazette entry dated 22 Jan 1919 is as follows "South Notts. Hussars.—2nd Lt. S. S. Mercier relinquishes his commission on account of ill-health, 23rd Jan. 1919, and retains the rank of 2nd Lt." Most other entries state "due to injuries sustained in the war". As his doesn't then I'm assuming he was just ill also his wife died 2 months later. Around that time Paignton had a very bad Spanish Flu outbreak that killed a lot of people So that probably why he isn't on CWGC list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 22 January , 2023 Admin Share Posted 22 January , 2023 1 hour ago, Penfoldisking said: George, could you please cut and paste that entry as I cancelled my find my past subscription. Many thanks A reminder of the forum rules Members may NOT use the GWF as a platform to ask parties who are subscribers to various subscription sites to download material on their behalf or to post it on the GWF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfoldisking Posted 22 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2023 5 minutes ago, Michelle Young said: A reminder of the forum rules Members may NOT use the GWF as a platform to ask parties who are subscribers to various subscription sites to download material on their behalf or to post it on the GWF. Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 @Penfoldisking Assuming you live in Hampshire, according to the Hampshire County Library website they offer Ancestry, FindMyPast and the British Newspaper Archive on the computers in their Library branches. If you need to look at the newspapers it might be simplest to go for the British Newspaper Archive - certainly up in Norfolk the Library edition of FindMyPast they subscribe to no longer includes newspapers and periodicals. As far as I'm aware that facility on FindMyPast and Ancestry is just a back door into the British Newspaper Archive anyway. Alternatively if you are a new member of the British Newspaper Archive website I believe you can still download the first three pages for free. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 This is in Ancestry....Sandy Close [Soper] is associated through the transcript with Sydney Mercier. I can't find this family in the census though. May be a red herring though... Name: Sandy Close[Sandy Soper] Gender: Female Death Age: 54 Birth Date: abt 1866 Marriage Date: 21 Jan Residence Place: St. Columb Miner Death Date: 24 Jan 1920 Death Place: Lifbon Burial Place: Lockerley . Obituary Date: 27 Jan 1920 Obituary Place: Plymouth, Devon, England Newspaper Title: The Western Morning News Father: T. H. Soper Parents: Elliot; Bfnjomin Rowe Spouse: J. C. Brown Child: Alice Ivy Sydney Saville Mercier Mary Elisaljetb George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 22 January , 2023 Share Posted 22 January , 2023 It's been drawn to my attention that I have mistakenly used the middle name Sackville instead of Saville in several of my responses. Posts have now been edited and noted accordingly. Apologies and I truely hope that no-one wasted time as a result of my error. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfoldisking Posted 22 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 22 January , 2023 Trying to prove that Sgt Sydney P Mercier is a different person but cannot find any trace of him apart from in military records. My memorial clearly state that he formally served with Herts Yeomanry and Sidney S Mercier doesn't seem to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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