Help Needed

[Penfoldisking]

I work as a volunteer with CWGC and have a private grave that shows a record that the individual served and died within dates to be commemorated by CWGC but isn't registered. His memorial shows he served in South Notts Hussars and also states he served in France, Egypt and Gallipoli. My problem is he only got commissioned (Cadet to Lt) in 1917 by which time Gallipoli was over. Am I looking for an ex ranker who served in Gallipoli getting commissioned at a later date?   

[RaySearching]

A name and service number would help

along with any other info you have parents location ect

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Penfoldisking said:

I work as a volunteer with CWGC and have a private grave that shows a record that the individual served and died within dates to be commemorated by CWGC but isn't registered. His memorial shows he served in South Notts Hussars and also states he served in France, Egypt and Gallipoli. My problem is he only got commissioned (Cadet to Lt) in 1917 by which time Gallipoli was over. Am I looking for an ex ranker who served in Gallipoli getting commissioned at a later date?   

Hi @Penfoldisking and welcome to the forum

Do I take it you believe him to be a missed commemoration, rather than one where the CWGC have him on the Roll of Honour but don't know where he is buried?

Given the scenario you have set out certainly seems a likely possibility that he was an ex-ranker. A quick check of the MiC's listed in the National Archive catalogue with the criteria Unit = Nottinghamshire Hussars and rank = Lieutenant brings up 118 matches, so as Ray says it's probably a good idea to give us a name and some basic biographical details if you have them and see what the forum hive mind can turn up!

Cheers,
Peter

[keithmroberts]

I too volunteer with the CWGC, many private graves are regarded as commemoration. If he is listed by the CWGC as in a private grave, then he is commemorated.

if you are investigating a grave that is NOT listed at all by the CWGC, then please help us, with the info that you have, especially including the date of death.

 

Keith

[Penfoldisking]

Hi, thanks for responding

The name on his grave is Sidney (Freddy) Mercier 2nd Lt South Notts Hussars. Also served with Hertfordshire Yeomanry

Served in Egypt and Gallipoli

Died 24th Jan 1920 age 33

His name is not registered with CWGC .

Edited 21 January , 2023 by Penfoldisking

[Penfoldisking]

I have found a Sidney Saville Mercier who served as a 2nd Lt South Notts Hussars and died on the same day in Paignton in Devon. My grave is in Lockerely Hants?

Also he was commissioned in 1917 (London Gazette) which is after Gallipoli ? But if he served with Herts Yeomanry they did go to Gallipoli. But I can find no record of him with Herts Yeomanry. I can only find a Sgt Sydney P Mercier in War records.

Edited 21 January , 2023 by Penfoldisking

[PRC]

The only Medal Index Card for him, as Sidney Sackville Mercier, is for his Silver War Badge.

Image courtesy a free account on Ancestry. There is no information on the back of the card.

There is also a pension ledger card for him - transcript on Ancestry, image on Fold 3.

He may have dropped down the cracks. As an officer his medals would have had to be applied for, but if all his service in a Theatre of War was in the ranks then his medals should have been automatically issued.

I see the death of a 33 year old "Sydney" Sackville Edit 23/01/23 Saville Mercier was registered in the Totnes District of Devon in Q1 1920 - which ties in with the birth of a "Sidney" Sackville Edit 23/01/23 Saville Mercier, possibly out of wedlock, (no mothers maiden name shown), in the St Georges Hanover Square District of London in Q3 1887.

1920 Probate Calendar entry shows he died on the 24th January 1920.

Image courtesy  https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk

Reason for checking is that there is a Medal Index Card for a Lance-Serjeant / Acting Serjeant 934 Sidney P. Mercier, Hertfordshire Yeomanry, whoses service overseas began in Egypt on the 5th November 1914, (although that may be date of departure from the UK), and who is noted as discharged. A soldier who finished his service at the end of the war who was a Territorial would normally be referred to as "dis-embodied". Discharge might be honourable - time served for example, or dishonourable, the former being the only legimate way he would have been subsequently considered for a commission. I could not find a birth or death in England & Wales for a Sidney \ Sydney P. Mercier. Service number and going overseas so early would hint at a pre-war enlistment, so he would have had to have been living in Hertfordshire.

Unfortunately as many of us have discovered over the years when putting forward a missed commemoration case, you are going to need his military records to stand any chance of success - civilian documents like Ministry of Pension ledger cards and newspaper reports are good supporting evidence, but not enough by themselves. You need to have something that shows the medical reasons why the Army released him from his commission. And sadly as far as I can tell the National Archive is not showing any surviving officers long papers for him. It's very unlikely that the Ministry of Defence hace retained anything, as by definition he did not serve after 1920.

Hope others have more joy in turning up records for you.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 22 January , 2023 by PRC

[alf mcm]

S.P. Mercier is recorded as Samuel Pier MERCIER in the London Gazette. He was born in Ireland and died in Dublin in 1947.

Sidney Saville MERCIER will only be recorded by CWGG if hid death was attributable to his war service, since he had left the army in 1919.

Regards,

Alf McM

[Penfoldisking]

Hi Peter

That confirms everything i have found as well

One other fact I found was Sidney Saville Mercier relinquished his commission due to ill health 23 Jan 1919 which ties in with his Silver Injury badge.

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

You will need to establish his Cause Of Death which means buying a copy of his death certificate. Then link the COD to the cause of his discharge from the army.

[Penfoldisking]

Hi Alf,

Yes Sidney Saville Mercier relinquished his commission 23 Jan 1919 due to ill health. A day later he was issued his Silver War Injury badge and died 12 months later which is within the CWGC dates of 31st Aug 1921.

Just need to prove its him

 

 

[PRC]

On 21/01/2023 at 11:40, alf mcm said:

S.P. Mercier is recorded as Samuel Pier MERCIER in the London Gazette. He was born in Ireland and died in Dublin in 1947.

Believe that is a different person - there are long officer papers for Captain Samuel Pierre Mercier of the Hussars. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1146056

MiC for the Hertforshire Yeomanry man is Sydney P Mercier.

Image courtesy Ancestry.

On 21/01/2023 at 11:50, Penfoldisking said:

Just need to prove its him

Address on the Silver War Badge Index Card and address on the 1920 Probate would appear to be a pretty strong link - and if date of death on the grave marker is the same as the probate calendar, the chances that two Sydney\ Sidney Sackvile Edit 23/01/23 Saville Mercier's died on the same day is infinitisemally small.

But you don't need to prove where he was buried to get a missed commemoration through - that's the icing on the cake for after the JCC and CWGC have agreed he should be commemorated in the first place.

Your really big hurdle is identifying specifically what medical conditions \ injuries caused the Army to release him, and whether they viewed it as being caused \ aggravated by his service. Without that sadly a death certificate and a known place of burial counts for very, very little.

Perhaps a forum member with access to Fold 3 can check out the Pension Ledger card. If the cause of death shown there, (if it has one), clearly indicates no relation between cause of death and the reason a pension, if any, was in payment, then that pretty much would close the door on a missed commemoration I believe - other opinions are available

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 22 January , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[RaySearching]

His pension ledger card is blank except for his name and unit

 

EDIT

Found a second ledger card  under Mercer S.S   ( Fiancee miss E,L,Burree ?)   (same man ?)

It appears Sidney Saville Mercier married in 1912

Ray

 

Edited 21 January , 2023 by RaySearching

[Penfoldisking]

Hi Peter

That confirms everything i have found as well

One other fact I found was Sidney Saville Mercier relinquished his commission due to ill health 23 Jan 1919 which ties in with his Silver Injury badge. 

 

[Penfoldisking]

Hi Ray

The marriage certificate helps a lot

The grave next to him is his wife but the name didn't make sense Sarah Cromwell. Now I see they didn't put her surname just wife of Sidney .

She died in March 1919 again registered in Totnes. 

 

Just found that her family on fathers side came from Lockerley, hence why they are buried there

Just need cause of death for Sidney

 

 

Edited 21 January , 2023 by Penfoldisking

[PRC]

1 hour ago, RaySearching said:

It appears Sidney Saville Mercier married in 1912

Ray

And his address prior to marriage was 6 The Parade, Watford and he was a Draper, son of a Jeweller - sounds like the kind of man who might have sought the social cachet of serving in the Hertfordshire Yeomanry!

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 21 January , 2023 by PRC
Typo

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Penfoldisking said:

The grave next to him is his wife but the name didn't make sense Sarah Cromwell. Now I see they didn't put her surname just wife of Sidney .

She died in March 1919 again registered in Totnes. Still no idea why they are both buried in Lockerley?

As Sarah died first, and presumably was buried first, it might be the connection comes through her family.

Checking that out:-

The birth of Sarah Cromwell Edney, mothers’ maiden name Petty, was registered with he civil authorities in the Westhampnett District of Sussex in Q4 1881.

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales the 9 year old Sarah Cromwell Edney, born Birdham, Sussex, was recorded living in a dwelling at Elm Grove, Rumbolds Wyke, Sussex. This was the household of parents Thomas L. Edney, aged 46, and a general labourer, born Lockerly, Hampshire., and Grace Ann Edney, aged 45 and born Westwellow, Wiltshire. Their other children living with them are Thomas William, (20, Engineers Assistant, born Lockerly), Elizabeth Frances, (15, Scholar, born Lockerly), James Alfred, (13, born Lockerly), Mary Susan, (10, born Birdham) and Matilda Emily, (6, born Portfield, Sussex)

The death of the 54 year old Thomas Longland Edney was recorded on the Chichester District of Sussex in Q1 1900. No obvious Probate Caledar entry.

By the time the 1901 Census of England & Wales was taken the family had split up.

The widow Grace A. Edney, (52, born West Wellow, living on own means), was recorded as the head of a household at Richmond Terrace, Winchester Road, Romsey, Hampshire. Living with her are her children France E, (24, Governess, born Lockerly), James A., (23, Seaman, born Portsmouth), and Matilda E., (16, Drapers Assistant, born Chichester, Sussex).

Sarah Cromwell Edney and her big brother Thomas William Edney appears to be elusive on this census.

Her older sister Mary Susan Edney, (20, a School Teacher, born Birdham, Chichester, Sussex), was recorded living by herself at 185 Wimborne Road, Winton, Southampton.

By the time of the 1911 Census the 29 year old Sarah Cromwell Edney, (29, an unmarried Drapers Assistant, born Birdham, Sussex), was recorded living at 52, Grove Avenue, Twickenham, Middlesex. This was the household of her married sister, Mary Susan Ivamy, (20, born Birdham) and brother-in-law, Ernest Ivamy, (24, an Assistant Schoolmaster in the employ of the Twickenham Education Authority, born Bournemouth, Hampshire).

Her mother, the 63 year old widow, Grace Anne Edney,  born West Wellow, Wiltshire, (county subsequently crossed through, probably by a census enumerator and changed to Hampshire), was recorded living by herself at The Homestead, Lockerly, Romsey, Hampshire.

There is a likely match for “Grace Annie” Edney on the 1921 Census of England & Wales at Hove, although birth place is shown as Yorkshire, England. Others in the same household include an Ernest, Mary E and 1 pther – I suspect that is the Ivamy’s. More details will be available via the appropriate level of subscription with FindMyPast, or a one-off purchase of the household return from the same site.

The death of a Grace Ann Edney, aged 83, was recorded in the Romsey District of Hampshire in Q1 1930.

The 1930 Probate Calendar has a Grace Ann Edney, of Lockerley near Romsey, Southampton, died on the 14^th February 1930. Probate was granted at the London Court on the 10^th October 1930 to George Thomas Petty, stockbroker and Charles William Warne, manager.

Hopefully that establishes the Lockerly connection.

Cheers,
Peter

[Penfoldisking]

peter,

Many thanks

[George Rayner]

Not at my PC currently but isn’t there another pension card on Fold3

I’ll be back in a while…

George

[alf mcm]

George,

The other card is completely blank.

Regards,

Alf McM

[PRC]

So sounds like there is not even any proof that a pension was in payment to him, unless @ss002d6252 or @Matlock1418 can spot anything in the reference numbers to confirm otherwise.

Cheers,
Peter

[ss002d6252]

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

So sounds like there is not even any proof that a pension was in payment to him, unless @ss002d6252 or @Matlock1418 can spot anything in the reference numbers to confirm otherwise.

Cheers,
Peter

These particular cards are often lacking in other details so can't, by themselves, confirm a pension or a lack of a pension.

Craig

[Matlock1418]

As Craig has posted - As a 'rule ... 'Officers' pension cards rarely recorded anything with clarity. So ???

M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Just to confirm -The 'other' S. Mercier:

Samuel Pierce (maybe Pierre) Mercier, born January 3rd 1887, Abbeyleix, Durrow district, Queen's County (Now Co. Laois):

And Sydney Saville Mercier, born London Sept.Qtr 1887:

Births Sep 1887   (>99%)
MERCIER	Sidney Saville		St.Geo.H.Sq	1a	497

Edited 21 January , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[George Rayner]

Apologies-I had been looking at Heyes on a different posting.

George