WW1 Rifle's re-issued to Home Guard

[DisasterDog]

19 hours ago, 5thBatt said:

Here's a photo of a No3 MkII 

Gorgeous example!

[navydoc16]

On 21/04/2024 at 01:36, 4thGordons said:

The lighting in my secure storage is not great - I took it outside for a moment for a couple of additional snaps

Yes its a Lithgow butt. It is dated 1915 but also with 1/16 and 3MD stamps

The forend is indeed a WWI dated Slazenger (1943)

 

The barrel is heavily greased (there is no paint visible)

I 

This is what I was speaking to about the H barrels- you can see the replacement barrels from BSA they were not fitted with rear sights. 
 

kind regards 

g

[navydoc16]

52 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

It looks as though the woman towards the end of the video is adding the N49 stamp to the foreend

N49 being the WW2 production code for H Morris (Northern District,  Contractor 49)

That was fascinating, and as we had guessed above. 
 

Apologies to @5thBatt and yourself for being a naughty nay-sayer. To me it made no logical sense as I had never read it or seen it before.
 

I am going to try find the gunboard where there are several photos from Weedon that came out several years ago which had also been incorrectly identified as “M1917” stocks. It was quite a large thread on the refurb process. 
 

We now know this is completely incorrect. Which is perfectly fine.
 

It really is its own little variation on collecting them and I now must have one!!
 

kind regards,

g

[Waddell]

On 20/04/2024 at 13:36, Mattr82 said:

@4thGordons A lot of the MLEs with the shortened barrels were done due to a variety of reasons.

- In the mid 1920s, Australia got 2000 long barrels from Britain and no more after that so that's where the requirement to use Lithgow produced barrels came into being. So it was a case of use the shortened/modified barrel or continue to use a worn out barrel.

- Standardisation of rifles used by clubs.

 

"Of the 7,400 long rifles on hand with the Defence Department, 5,640 were on loan to rifle clubs and 1,760 in store. The rifles in store would need rebarreling before being issued; barrels would be issued to rifle clubs as well. The 2,000 barrels from England were due to arrive in December 1924, but when Lithgow could deliver was uncertain. In any event, to help overcome the problem, it was decided to see whether the long .303 rifles could be modified to accept short barrels for the .303-inch SMLE. This was the first step to re-equipping the rifle clubs with the standard military rifle."

 

The Department of Defence oversaw the rifle clubs inter-war and supplied funding, rifles, barrels and ammunition. And with Mk.VI ammunition dwindling, newer barrels that used the Mk.VII ammunition were becoming more of a necessity than a want. It's also around that 1930s that the Department of Defence began loaning more ShtLE rifles 

 

 

Just going back to this informative post by Matt a few weeks ago, I'm not a collector of rifle or knowledgeable about Lee Enfields in anyway but was in the Southern Highlands of New South Wales several days ago and came across this interesting photograph at Bundanoon showing their rifle club, which was formed in 1925. The photograph is not dated but I believe it might be 1925 as it looks like a formal shot. Please forgive the quality but it was shot outside on a rainy day.

Are these the long rifles Matt mentions above? And did Australian army personnel become invovlved when a club was set up? (it mentions that Department of Defense oversaw the rifle clubs)  As there is a man in AIF uniform at the right of the photograph. Of course it's possible that he might just be an ex-servceman wearing his old uniform, which I believe wasn't uncommon to see in the years shortly after the war.

Anyway, hope they are of some interest. 

Scott

[navydoc16]

3 hours ago, Waddell said:

 

Hi Scott,

Beautiful photograph by the way, in answer to your post - I helped in some aspects of documentation of the Orange NSW rifle range, now small bore but originally full bore and established over 150 years ago. 

Yes these are the "Long Lees" we all refer to- they are actually MLEs and occasionally some CCLEs, of both ex-military and commercial origin.

1925 is "lateish" for the usage of the Long Lees, but not that late.

New barrels could still be purchased as ive linked above, however these rifle have not been shortened to the "shortened range patten" by my eyes. 

Bundanoon is a very small town, not near size needed of the "proper" rifle ranges that would have received the support. In my research of Orange, we found that Broken Hill, Bathurst, Orange, Lithgow, Mudgee and Burke had very very large rifle clubs with military support. This was due to both the military support - likely due to ex-servicemen and the proximity to Reserve and Active Army Barracks. The Orange Range served amounts other things, as as training range for the military pre WW1, and after WW1 we estimated it had over 1000 active members. 

I would say that that man in uniform is likely just an ex-serviceman, and yes it was not completely uncommon; if he was an active member that uniform he would have had the correct slouch hat would have been pressed and dressed to a very high standard, especially for a photo in the 1920's

I think the Bundanoon at what looks like less than 20 members would have been too small to officially support- they also probably never bothered to update the "standard" to get rifles in the Shortened Range Pattern or SMLE's. There were small rifle clubs that competed using the old rifles still using the large quantities of Mk6 ammunition that were hanging around after the Great War.

kind regards,

g

 

Edited 8 hours ago by navydoc16

[Waddell]

4 hours ago, navydoc16 said:

 

Bundanoon is a very small town, not near size needed of the "proper" rifle ranges that would have received the support. In my research of Orange, we found that Broken Hill, Bathurst, Orange, Lithgow, Mudgee and Burke had very very large rifle clubs with military support. This was due to both the military support - likely due to ex-servicemen and the proximity to Reserve and Active Army Barracks. The Orange Range served amounts other things, as as training range for the military pre WW1, and after WW1 we estimated it had over 1000 active members. 

I would say that that man in uniform is likely just an ex-serviceman, and yes it was not completely uncommon; if he was an active member that uniform he would have had the correct slouch hat would have been pressed and dressed to a very high standard, especially for a photo in the 1920's

I think the Bundanoon at what looks like less than 20 members would have been too small to officially support- they also probably never bothered to update the "standard" to get rifles in the Shortened Range Pattern or SMLE's. There were small rifle clubs that competed using the old rifles still using the large quantities of Mk6 ammunition that were hanging around after the Great War.

 

Thanks. That information is interesting to know. I did look into the Bundanoon Rifle Club and when it started it originally had 60 members. It seems to have lasted only around ten years.

Scott

[navydoc16]

1 minute ago, Waddell said:

Thanks. That information is interesting to know. I did look into the Bundanoon Rifle Club and when it started it originally had 60 members. It seems to have lasted only around ten years.

Scott

A lot of smaller clubs especially in lower socioeconomic areas, maintained the Long Lees for far longer- it kept the playing field equal and kept everyone happy.

A bit of friendly competition you might say… but it was much much more than that for a lot of those guys. 

the rifle club was “therapy” for a lot of men (and they probably never new it) they came back from the war, many had experienced terrible things, and often the club was a place where the shooting stopped before noon, but a lot of men would stand around for hours later just talking. 
 

kind regards

g