WW1 Rifle's re-issued to Home Guard

[jimmy9fingers1]

Hi all,

 

I know this isn't strictly WW1 as the photo is of our local Home Guard Unit,

Londesborough Home Guard , East Yorkshire.

The rifles on the photograph are, i believe WW1, think i've got a fair idea what they are,

but would like it if anyone else can confirm, the side profile rifle carried by the seated man is

the best photographs i have discovered of that particular weapon, sadly it isn't a great photo.

thanks,

 

Jim 

[Gunner Bailey]

They are M1917 / P17 Enfields. .30 cal and an excellent rifle. I shot one a few years ago and it was very accurate and easy to use. Only holding 5 rounds compared to the 10 of the SMLE/No. 4. 

[4thGordons]

56 minutes ago, Gunner Bailey said:

They are M1917 / P17 Enfields. .30 cal and an excellent rifle. I shot one a few years ago and it was very accurate and easy to use. Only holding 5 rounds compared to the 10 of the SMLE/No. 4. 

Well........

They may be M1917s in 30.06,  or they could be P14 (Rifle No3)  rifles in .303.

The M1917s because of the calibre difference usually had a broad red band painted around the stock - I do not see any evidence of that here but it is hard to tell on photographs of course, and the photo is not clear enough to make out other possible distinguishing factors.

Little known fact: because of the conversion of the design from .303 to .30-06 the M1917 rifle actually holds 6 rounds rather than 5 (the rimless .30-06 is longer but narrower than the .303 case so 6 fit)

Chris

[Gunner Bailey]

30 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Well........

They may be M1917s in 30.06,  or they could be P14 (Rifle No3)  rifles in .303.

The M1917s because of the calibre difference usually had a broad red band painted around the stock - I do not see any evidence of that here but it is hard to tell on photographs of course, and the photo is not clear enough to make out other possible distinguishing factors.

Little known fact: because of the conversion of the design from .303 to .30-06 the M1917 rifle actually holds 6 rounds rather than 5 (the rimless .30-06 is longer but narrower than the .303 case so 6 fit)

Chris

Hi Chris

I've seen two ex-Home guard M1917s. One had a red band and the other had a band and .30-06 painted on the for- end. I didn't know about the six capacity. Was there a chance of a jam that way?

Most still in use here seem to have been converted to 7.62 NATO.

Edited 20 January , 2023 by Gunner Bailey

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, Gunner Bailey said:

Hi Chris

 I didn't know about the six capacity. Was there a chance of a jam that way?

 

Not that I am aware of - the magazine in mine appears to function just fine with six as far as I recall (I think rimless cartridges are less likely to jam as a rule)

I too have seen several variations of red stripes and stenciling of the calibre - I recently saw a M1917 that was RCAF marked and it had both a red line and a stencil.

Lots of M1917 actions were used as the basis for all sorts of "wildcat" calibre conversions here in the states I think because of the strength and availability of the actions in the 50s and 60s.

I have one that shoots very well and one that has a steel rod welded down the length of the barrel and was used as a drill rifle somewhere - this at least allows me to display it without any concerns.

Chris

[jimmy9fingers1]

Thanks I thought they were likely M1917's or as it's also been pointed out that they may be P14's, am i right in thinking that the M1917? 

doesn't have a volley sight?. Although it would be difficult to distinguish this feature.

The neighbouring village of Shiptonthorpe were certainly equipped with .30-06 calibre M1917's as i was fortunate to have known one of the last surviving

members, the absence of marking around the barrel suggest they may be P14's. The only guns i've seen which feature that distinguishing red band were 

de-activated examples (i don't have a FAC licence), that appeared to have had the band painted on a later date, either by a dealer or re-enactor i presume.   

Thanks 4th Gordons and Gunner Bailey. Sadly i've not shot the M1917, they look well made guns though. 

               

[4thGordons]

32 minutes ago, jimmy9fingers1 said:

Thanks I thought they were likely M1917's or as it's also been pointed out that they may be P14's, am i right in thinking that the M1917? 

doesn't have a volley sight?. Although it would be difficult to distinguish this feature.

The neighbouring village of Shiptonthorpe were certainly equipped with .30-06 calibre M1917's as i was fortunate to have known one of the last surviving

members, the absence of marking around the barrel suggest they may be P14's. The only guns i've seen which feature that distinguishing red band were 

de-activated examples (i don't have a FAC licence), that appeared to have had the band painted on a later date, either by a dealer or re-enactor i presume.   

Thanks 4th Gordons and Gunner Bailey. Sadly i've not shot the M1917, they look well made guns though. 

               

Correct the M1917 did not have a volley sight -- however nor did most No3MkI*s (P14s) by 1940 because they were removed when the rifles were taken out of store and passed through the WRS (Weedon Repair Standard) process.  Any rifles that were restocked also did not have this. (the photo is the wrong side to see if the volley sight base remained we would have to look for the bolt head that holds it in place which would be hard to detect)

I should say I don't KNOW if these are M1917s or No3MkIs (P14) -- I just can't see any sign of the painted band -- but then again it might not be showing up -- red on a dark brown wood stock is not particularly high contrast

Just as a point of reference (and potential confusion) a large number of P14s were reimported into the US in the 1990s/00s from India and most of them had been reduced to Drill Purpose (DP) by having the chamber drilled. These had a red and white band painted around the body of the rifle.

I will see if I can find a pic of mine

Chris  

One thing that suggests they are NOT P14s is I see no sign of the unit marker disc in the side of the butt and I would expect that to be visible (the one caveat being - the WWII produced P14 stocks didn't have it either!)

 

Edited 21 January , 2023 by 4thGordons
afterthought

[Mattr82]

The rifle on the left definitely looks like it has a ‘Fatboy stock’ on it. This tells me that these rifles are P-14s.

Edited 21 January , 2023 by Mattr82

[Mattr82]

Here’s two P-14s and one with a Fatboy or Fatso stock on the top rifle. The wood is a lot thicker ahead of the trigger guard. My P-14 has one too and it’s definitely noticeable as compared to a P-14 without one when you look at them from underneath. 
 

 

[Mattr82]

Only Eddystone produced the fatso stock for P-14s. It’s firmly my belief that the photo of the soldiers and the rifles does show a P-14 with a fatso stock on the far left. Compare the outward swell on the rifle in the original photo with a photo showing the underside of P-14s with and without a fatso stock. 
 

 

[4thGordons]

I recognize that photo!

[Mattr82]

18 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

I recognize that photo!

It was off one of the Gunboard forum posts that excellently described the differences in P-14 stocks. I’m a fairly active member in that site about Lee Enfields.

Edited 21 January , 2023 by Mattr82

[4thGordons]

Yep…. Who was the poster?

[Mattr82]

It was you! 😂 

Would you agree that it is possibly a Fatboy on the left?

[4thGordons]

41 minutes ago, Mattr82 said:

It was you! 😂 

Would you agree that it is possibly a Fatboy on the left?

I wouldn't bet much on it - but it looks like it to me too. Really difficulty to sure....

Chris

[jimmy9fingers1]

Thanks again for the info, 4th Gordons i was unaware that the volley site was removed on the P14's by WW2.

Dads Army has a lot to answer for haha, believe the P14 rifles on that programme still retained their volleys

sights, not that I should base my research on a fictional sitcom haha.

Mattr82 i've never heard of a Fatso stock, it could be present on the photograph, shame it's not of a better quality,

to fully establish if it's a P14 or M1917.       

[jimmy9fingers1]

Here's a photo of Farmer Alec Blacker, he was also in Londesborough Home Guard and carrying a Ross Rifle in this photo i believe,

i'd best not go off topic to much as obviously Home Guard isn't WW1, but they clearly had a mix of WW1 rifles.

Wonder whether they had a mix of P14's and M1917's, they certainly would need a painted band to differentiate between

them if that was the case. 

[Mattr82]

My P-14 went through Weedon and still maintains a volley sight on the fore end but has had the rear volley sight removed. The more I look at that original pic the more I am of the opinion that it’s a Fatboy stock. It’s a shame it’s not of a better quality that photo. 

[4thGordons]

3 hours ago, jimmy9fingers1 said:

Here's a photo of Farmer Alec Blacker, he was also in Londesborough Home Guard and carrying a Ross Rifle in this photo i believe,

i'd best not go off topic to much as obviously Home Guard isn't WW1, but they clearly had a mix of WW1 rifles.

Wonder whether they had a mix of P14's and M1917's, they certainly would need a painted band to differentiate between

them if that was the case. 

 

That's a nice pic. I don't think I have seen WWII use of Ross rifles before. It's very difficult to see if it is the MkIII or MkIIIB

I would have thought - to the extent possible -- units would have had either P14s or M1917s - to mix them in the same unit would seem to be asking for trouble, but I suppose in the most dire days of shortage immediately after Dunkirk when they were issuing pikes and shotguns then maybe.

2 hours ago, Mattr82 said:

My P-14 went through Weedon and still maintains a volley sight on the fore end but has had the rear volley sight removed. The more I look at that original pic the more I am of the opinion that it’s a Fatboy stock. It’s a shame it’s not of a better quality that photo. 

The front volley base was usually left in place but the pointer removed and sometimes the centre ground down, sometimes the rear peep was removed and replaced with a spacer and sometimes the peep arm was just cut off. I have examples demonstrating a mixture of all of these from unmodified to fully gone:

 

For the purposes of comparison

M1917 .30-06

Pattern 1914 (Rifle No3, MkI) .303

 

Ross M1910 .303

[Mattr82]

I’ve taken a couple of pics of my P-14.

front volley was untouched and the rear arm was ground off. 
 

I might add that this rifle was a farmers rifle for many years in NQ before I purchased it in 2016. 
I had been looking for one for awhile, and they seemed pretty scarce in terms of coming up for sale. I had just moved to Townsville and was at a gun store getting my serial numbers checked to transfer my license and rifles to QLD. And sure enough on the shelf was this P-14 which had been handed in a couple of days beforehand by the farmer who was getting on in age and selling off his rifles.

Apparently some early made SMLEs were also handed in but were snapped up by a collector who was tipped off by the gun dealer. $350 wasn’t too harsh on the hip pocket.
 

 

Edited 22 January , 2023 by Mattr82

[MrEd]

I am not sure that front dial sight is correct on that p14 - I am pretty sure that the shorter ones are for SMLE’s and the p14 had a longer one (hence the larger space cut out of the wood)

about butt discs, I looked at a very nice weedon’d p14 recently and it had the butt disc hole nicely inlet with an almost matching colour piece of wood

Edited 22 January , 2023 by MrEd

[Mattr82]

I'm glad you did point that out because it's the 2nd P-14 I have observed in Australia with a SMLE front volley sight pointer. Post-WW2, it appears that P-14s were offloaded to Australia at a bargain deal price. Australia gave approx 30,000+ SMLEs post Dunkirk.  Britain wanted much more but Australia was stretched like hell.

These P-14s appear to have been part of a thanks gesture but with a twist..."You have to pay for them somewhat". From what I have observed, many were Eddystone manufactured rifles and had been quickly refurbished before shipment to Australia...... to a point.

They were very quickly sold off to the civilian market from the late 1940s.

I have a 1908 RSAF No.1 Mk.III that has had the butt disc replaced with a thin piece of wood.

MrEd, do P-14s show up occasionally in the UK for sale or are they somewhat of a rare-ish beast?

Edited 22 January , 2023 by Mattr82

[Mattr82]

Australia’s version of the Home Guard was the VDC or the Volunteer Defence Corps. They were armed with whatever rifles were available to them. 
 

We see everything from Long Lees, Mk.1 SMLEs, No.4 Lee Enfields and….Martini’s in 577/450 and .310….you name it!

 

[dman]

In summer of 1940  Army Chief of Staff George Marshall released some 615,000 Model 1917 Enfields to be  shipped to Uk for Home Guard use.  Marshall declared them as "surplus"    It is said that the ships carrying the rifle were the most heavily guarded of the convoy.   In 1941 a further 119,00 were sent.  

Despite the "surplus:", really a ruse to allow them to be transferred,  many were still used by US Army in early days of WWI.  Units in the Philippines including the famed Philippine Scouts were armed mostly with 1917.  They were used by artillery men in North Africa following the Torch landings  

[MrEd]

5 hours ago, Mattr82 said:

I'm glad you did point that out because it's the 2nd P-14 I have observed in Australia with a SMLE front volley sight pointer. Post-WW2, it appears that P-14s were offloaded to Australia at a bargain deal price. Australia gave approx 30,000+ SMLEs post Dunkirk.  Britain wanted much more but Australia was stretched like hell.

These P-14s appear to have been part of a thanks gesture but with a twist..."You have to pay for them somewhat". From what I have observed, many were Eddystone manufactured rifles and had been quickly refurbished before shipment to Australia...... to a point.

They were very quickly sold off to the civilian market from the late 1940s.

I have a 1908 RSAF No.1 Mk.III that has had the butt disc replaced with a thin piece of wood.

MrEd, do P-14s show up occasionally in the UK for sale or are they somewhat of a rare-ish beast?

They turn up regularly, they aren’t common but also aren’t rare if that makes sense?