WW1 Rifle's re-issued to Home Guard

[MikB]

1 hour ago, MrEd said:

They turn up regularly, they aren’t common but also aren’t rare if that makes sense?

A quick run of Guntrader UK found 6 P.14s for sale vs. 29 SMLEs.

Edited 22 January , 2023 by MikB

[jimmy9fingers1]

Thanks, again guys, didn't think about P14's being used in the Australian Home Guard. 

That's quite a few P14's and SMLE's, i'd like to find a de-act P14 or M1917 at some point,

there are a few parts bin specials about.

Mattr82 that is a great photograph of Australia's version of the Home Guard and totally new to me.

It's amazing the longevity of these rifles, surely testament to the quality of the manufacturing in those days.

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jimmy9fingers1]

This is another member of the Londesborough Home Guard sporting what I believe to be a WW1 era

Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR)?, no doubt i'll be put right if i'm wrong.

The chap in the photograph is Harry Butler, he was a Gamekeeper on the Londesborough Estate,

so no doubt handy with rifle.

As to the Ross Rifle in the previous photograph i posted, i'm not sure what Mk it is, don't really know

anything about them, other than they are Canadian WW1 rifles used by our Local Home Guard,

would be very interesting to know if they mixed the p14's and M1917's, although as it been pointed

out it would be a potential recipe for disaster.  

[MikB]

9 minutes ago, jimmy9fingers1 said:

Thanks, again guys, didn't think about P14's being used in the Australian Home Guard. 

That's quite a few P14's and SMLE's, i'd like to find a de-act P14 or M1917 at some point,

there are a few parts bin specials about.

Mattr82 that is a great photograph of Australia's version of the Home Guard and totally new to me.

It's amazing the longevity of these rifles, surely testament to the quality of the manufacturing in those days.

 

It's as much a testimony to the distribution of the skills in their maintenance and repair into the workforce of the time, and the transference of those skills to succeeding generations.

Of course it's also true that many of the examples extant today will have been worked on by gunsmiths at a wide variety of skill levels... 

[Mattr82]

Australia didn’t use the P-14 as part of the VDC. We received a small amount of P-14s in 1941/1942 and Australia used them as sniper rifles in the Pacific where they were well regarded. Their use was predominantly by the commando elements. They used a Pattern 18 scope which was the same Australian made scope that they later in 1944/1945 used on the SMLE No.1 Mk.IIIs.

 

[MrEd]

2 hours ago, jimmy9fingers1 said:

Thanks, again guys, didn't think about P14's being used in the Australian Home Guard. 

That's quite a few P14's and SMLE's, i'd like to find a de-act P14 or M1917 at some point,

there are a few parts bin specials about.

Mattr82 that is a great photograph of Australia's version of the Home Guard and totally new to me.

It's amazing the longevity of these rifles, surely testament to the quality of the manufacturing in those days.

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know someone selling (just before Xmas) an original p14 deac, complete with original volley sights and matching numbers - I can ask if he still has it and pass his details if you like?

5 hours ago, MikB said:

A quick run of Guntrader UK found 6 P.14s for sale vs. 29 SMLEs.

Yeah not rare but not common either, 

[t.ryan]

Before the change to .308 the P14 with its much stronger action then the SMLE, also found its way to be used on the big bore rifle range.

Like the SMLE, many were also converted by local gun smiths to hunting rifles mainly 303-25 cal. as Aussie hunters did not have much choice at that time.

My dad, a local farmer at the time was in the VDC and served from Jan. 42 to Sept. 45. He told us many times how his main position was guarding the local bridge on the main north south highway from Sydney north to Brisbane and beyond. To start with all they had to defend themselves with was a pick handle, later replaced with SMLEs. The railway bridge was situated a little further up the river and in case of a Japanese recon. plane flying over, they had 2 rowing boats tied stern to stern with a 20 foot 6 inch round sapling positioned at 45 degrees and partly covered with a tarp. This was the gun boat defending the railway bridge.

Cheers.

[4thGordons]

9 hours ago, dman said:

In summer of 1940  Army Chief of Staff George Marshall released some 615,000 Model 1917 Enfields to be  shipped to Uk for Home Guard use.  Marshall declared them as "surplus"    It is said that the ships carrying the rifle were the most heavily guarded of the convoy.   In 1941 a further 119,00 were sent.  

Despite the "surplus:", really a ruse to allow them to be transferred,  many were still used by US Army in early days of WWI.  Units in the Philippines including the famed Philippine Scouts were armed mostly with 1917.  They were used by artillery men in North Africa following the Torch landings  

In addition to the lease-lend rifles, at the end of January 1941 the UK purchased 50,000 M1917 rifles for the price of 250,000 pounds.

And re: Ross rifles, in Sept 1942 Holland and Holland were contracted to repair 2000 Ross rifles.

and contracts for 677,324 No3 MkI* rifle to be brought up to WRS (by 10 different contractors) were issued in June 1939

so large numbers of Great War rifles continued in service in these roles!

Chris

[DisasterDog]

On 21/01/2023 at 08:40, 4thGordons said:

I don't think I have seen WWII use of Ross rifles before.

There is another image where the angle makes the rifle a bit more clear, but I can’t seem to find it.

 

On 21/01/2023 at 08:40, 4thGordons said:

I don't think I have seen WWII use of Ross rifles before.

There is another image where the angle makes the rifle a bit more clear, but I can’t seem to find it.

 

[DisasterDog]

I also have a Long Lee that was issued to Christchurch Home Guard:

 

 

[4thGordons]

I have a couple too!

[DisasterDog]

26 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

I have a couple too!

 

Also a PB-prefix, which is closer to my serial than our HG numbers! 
 

 

 

Photo courtesy of the Otago Times:

 

Edited 23 January , 2023 by DisasterDog

[jimmy9fingers1]

14 hours ago, MrEd said:

I know someone selling (just before Xmas) an original p14 deac, complete with original volley sights and matching numbers - I can ask if he still has it and pass his details if you like?

Yeah not rare but not common either, 

Yes please pass my details on, i've sent you a message through GWF hopefully

[jimmy9fingers1]

Some beautiful Long Lee examples there, T.Ryan the Australian Home Guard (VDC) sounds like they were quite a similar 

situation to our British Home Guard, albeit in a different geographical location. Some great period photo's posted on this thread.

The modifications picked up by these WW1 firearms seem to be widely varied as is often the case with military rifles that are sold out of service

and in civilian hands. A credit to the people who built and looked after them, but also it has been mentioned that not all work is performed

by competent gunsmiths, given a few of the examples that are floating about.

I'd love to know the fate our local Home Guard rifles after they were handed in. Examples with decent bore's must be fairly desirable now.

      

[navydoc16]

On 21/01/2023 at 23:04, jimmy9fingers1 said:

Here's a photo of Farmer Alec Blacker, he was also in Londesborough Home Guard and carrying a Ross Rifle in this photo i believe,

i'd best not go off topic to much as obviously Home Guard isn't WW1, but they clearly had a mix of WW1 rifles.

Wonder whether they had a mix of P14's and M1917's, they certainly would need a painted band to differentiate between

them if that was the case. 

They tried to keep units with 303 calibre and M1917s seperate- there were lots of random various 303s around. But once the Americans had supplied large amounts of M1917s and ammunition the entire units were outfitted and their existing weapons taken away 
 

Kind regards

g

[Mattr82]

Glad this thread has been somewhat revived as the Home Guard use of equipment is an under discussed issue in my opinion.

 

Before he passed away, Prof. Holmes wrote this thesis on arming the HG. I've read it numerous times and is a good 335 page source of information for a topic that I find fascinating.

 https://bootcampmilitaryfitnessinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Arming-the-Home-Guard-1940-1944.pdf

 

 

Edited 13 April by Mattr82

[navydoc16]

On 21/01/2023 at 22:59, jimmy9fingers1 said:

Thanks again for the info, 4th Gordons i was unaware that the volley site was removed on the P14's by WW2.

Dads Army has a lot to answer for haha, believe the P14 rifles on that programme still retained their volleys

sights, not that I should base my research on a fictional sitcom haha.

Mattr82 i've never heard of a Fatso stock, it could be present on the photograph, shame it's not of a better quality,

to fully establish if it's a P14 or M1917.       

Well they weren’t all “removed and replace” the P14s had been in storage since the end of the Great War- they were never refurbished before storage and were always a reserve arm. 
 

when the M1917s were imported into the UK,  they were also imported with the parts to maintain that existed in US inventory 
 

when the P14s were refurbished for UK use at Weedon. they found a lot of stocks had received wood warpage or rot- these stocks were replaced by replacement M1917 stocks they had on hand. 
 

kind regards

g

[navydoc16]

On 24/01/2023 at 00:18, jimmy9fingers1 said:

Some beautiful Long Lee examples there, T.Ryan the Australian Home Guard (VDC) sounds like they were quite a similar 

situation to our British Home Guard, albeit in a different geographical location. Some great period photo's posted on this thread.

The modifications picked up by these WW1 firearms seem to be widely varied as is often the case with military rifles that are sold out of service

and in civilian hands. A credit to the people who built and looked after them, but also it has been mentioned that not all work is performed

by competent gunsmiths, given a few of the examples that are floating about.

I'd love to know the fate our local Home Guard rifles after they were handed in. Examples with decent bore's must be fairly desirable now.

      

Well Australian Home Guard rifles are actually some what hard to find, and not that well marked actually. 
 

during the interwar period, ownership of a “military” calibre rifle .303 was restricted/prohibited in many states- this was to curb illegal ownership of military property that had come into Australia at the end of WW1. Ownership of a .303 was actually only open in most states to members or service rifle clubs/active target shooters. 
 

So the SMLE and Long Lees in public ownership were almost always Target Rifles- fitted with aftermarket H heavy barrels and rear aperture sights. 
 

when war broke out- the Australian government asked for the donation without compensation of any and all .303 rifles  SMLE- but happy to take Long Lees- however the target rifle shooters often removed the rear sights for use with an aperture sights and a longer sight radius. 
 

the government had to have “emergency sights” made to retrofit these rifles for “Central Emergency Mk1 sights” made but the Central target sight factory in Victoria. 
 

I have one somewhere and I will picture it below when I dig it out. They are quite rare- very occasionally you will find one still fitted to an ex target rifle that was used for home guard use and never re-converted to a target rifle. 
 

they also fitted Mues Kings target sights in WA and several other states to “standardise” target rifles as service weapons. 
 

kind regards,

g

Edited 13 April by navydoc16

[Mattr82]

Here's some more excellent photos of the VDC in 'action'.

Really shows the variety of rifles at their disposal. The VDC weren't spared from rifle acquisition later either.

When the order came on the 8th of December 1941 to surrender/hand over all .303 weapons, the 'latest' pattern, the No.1 Mk.III/III*s, were handed over to the MDs to allow for the creation of further brigades for the AIF and supplement the AMF and the VDC were handed older rifles of differing calibres and types.

It is such a fascinating topic for me.

Edited 13 April by Mattr82

[jimmy9fingers1]

Amazing photographs

[4thGordons]

5 hours ago, navydoc16 said:

- these stocks were replaced by replacement M1917 stocks they had on hand. 

I am not sure this is accurate, 

While most of the rifles which went through the WRS program simply had the pointers and peeps of the volley sights removed, some replacement  stocks were fitted that did not have the volley sight base, but as far as I am aware these were newly produced stocks,  not M1917 stocks. 

Chris

 

[navydoc16]

10 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I am not sure this is accurate, 

While most of the rifles which went through the WRS program simply had the pointers and peeps of the volley sights removed, some replacement  stocks were fitted that did not have the volley sight base, but as far as I am aware these were newly produced stocks,  not M1917 stocks. 

Chris

 

Well yes and no? I mean you might be able to call a P14 stock without inletting a M1917 or vice versa- but the UK manufactured no replacement P14 stocks during WW2 as they lacked the pantograph and tooling to make them. They were unfinished blanks from US inventory that were sent to the Uk- I do have an unissued one that I purchased from the UK that had no markings US acceptance or Uk markings at all. 
 

The only spares for the P14 were what remained in the Uk from the Great War, and later whatever interchangeable parts from the M1917 were sent under lend lease. 
 

now it probably could be argued that maybe somewhere in the US stores system was some no volley sight inletted P14 stocks? But all the evidence shows they had still had seasoned inletted stock blanks for the M1917 and semi-inletted blanks from the M1903 in their storage system. 
 

the M1917 spares is what was released when the US began remanufacturing the 1903 instead of the M1917 and sent the remainder to the UK and Canada. once they decided their reserve arm was the 1903 and not the 1917, the remaining spares were released.

I have it on fairly good authority that what remained of P14 production that was left in US factories post WW1 and not paid for was destroyed.
 

from this I purchased one of several unissued grease paper packs from a collector in the states who was able to add them to his collection - when big crates of specifically volley sights, rear sights, brass stock discs and front sight adjustment tools were sent to scrap direct from Eddystone stores. He mentioned these items specifically, I’m guessing all the other “P14” gear was still useable on the M1917 rifle and was purchased by US inventory or had already been absorbed.

I’ll dig out the front sight tools and rear sights tomorrow, I think I know where they are. I think my unissued stock is in storage but I’ll see if I can get photos. 

Kind regards 

g

 

Edited 13 April by navydoc16

[navydoc16]

Also there was enough M1917 stocks or P14s without inletting in UK inventory that post war, Hale refurbished ball burnished target rifles based on the P14 with what they advertised as brand new stocks or refurbished existing P14 stocks- depending on the price you wanted to pay- it was advertised in their manual.  

kind regards

g

Edited 13 April by navydoc16

[4thGordons]

I am out of town until tomorrow but I am fairly certain that contracts were placed for p14 sticks without in letting for volley sights during 1938-42? IIRC the firm was based in Glasgow. I will check when I return.

Chris

[navydoc16]

6 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

I am out of town until tomorrow but I am fairly certain that contracts were placed for p14 sticks without in letting for volley sights during 1938-42? IIRC the firm was based in Glasgow. I will check when I return.

Chris

Thanks Chris, that will be very cool to learn if it is,  I am a super keen fan of the P14 and haven’t heard anything apart from a post here and there discussing the stocks from Glasgow without any luck laying eyes on one yet. 
 

I know there was one or two factories in Glasgow that were contracted for No.4 woodwork. H. Morris Co. LTD comes to mind I was not aware of P14 being built there- after the war built under the actual marking HM Co. LTD- but during the war they built under N49 code- I’m assuming the replacement P14 will come dispersal code “N-XX” or such?
 

I must get out the other P14 stock I believe was ex Weedon- it came to me without woodwork with paper wrapping on each end- there is only one stock cartouche which was a number or letter which I can’t remember- but nothing else, completely plain, no US or UK markings at all. Unforgivably I know I put this into storage for safe keeping at a different property last year and won’t be able to have at it for a while. However it has no stock disc. 
 

if your information is correct, there should be some P14s with no volley sight inletting but have  a stock disc inlet, which won’t be present on a M1917. So long as someone wasn’t trying to make that happen with a Forster bit. 
 

kind regards

g