FROGSMILE Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 Just now, geraint said: Wow! Excellent answer Frogsmile. I'm amazed at the depth of knowledge which members have. Thank you! Geraint I’m glad to help, it all dated back to the Volunteer Force days of the Volunteer Battalions and the pecking order they were in when compared with the regular and militia units. As all the musketry instructors were largely superannuated colour sergeants in permanent staff slots it was felt inappropriate that the one selected locally to be the sergeant major of battalion should be given the same status as the sergeant major of the regular battalion from whence he came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 (edited) Yeah! I think I'm more or less with you with that. Would a colour sergeant out rank a sergeant major? The man sitting centre of the first row (next to him) with the gloves is a sergeant major isn't he? (crown above chevrons). Spoiler No idea where this hidden content box came from! Edited 18 November , 2022 by geraint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 (edited) On 18/11/2022 at 14:11, geraint said: Yeah! I think I'm more or less with you with that. Would a colour sergeant out rank a sergeant major? The man sitting centre of the first row (next to him) with the gloves is a sergeant major isn't he? (crown above chevrons). Reveal hidden contents No idea where this hidden content box came from! The former regular colour sergeant was appointed as an instructor of musketry and until I think 1908 wore 4-stripes with crossed rifles with crown above.** The sergeant major of the unit had 4-stripes and big crown as explained. Ergo the system was that all the regular permanent staff had 4-stripes and all of them outranked at a glance the other unit NCOs (the part timers), all of whom could have only 3-stripes (plus crown) at most. A crude but effective visual pecking order. In most of the mounted auxiliary units the squadron sergeant majors and squadron-quarter-master-sergeants both wore 3-stripes upper arm with a (often large) crown above. It wasn’t until the Summer 1915 changes that the SSM became a warrant officer II and started to wear a crown on his lower arm. From that point, the auxiliary forces organisation and rank badges were largely brought in line with the regulars apart from their own special (regimental) arm badges, etc. **from around the 1908 point the instructors were retitled Colour Sergeant Instructor of Musketry (and equivalent in mounted units) with a badge of 3-stripes upper arm and conjoined (i.e. one-piece) crown and crossed rifles above. The Acting Sergeant Major then became the only man with 4-stripes and crown above until Summer 1915, as explained. Edited 19 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 Thanks again Frogsmile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 2 hours ago, geraint said: Why is the man front row second from our left wearing three chevrons on his lower arm pointing up, and the sergeant next to him wearing his chevrons on his upper arm pointing down? Are they both sergeants? Is the first a WO? Edit. Looking closer, the first man mentioned appears to have four chevrons of a darker colour compared to all the other chevrons shown in the photo. 2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: The man with 4-stripes point down and crown above (just discernible) is the Acting Sergeant Major Photo 16 Forgive me, it must be my colour blindness playing up again, but I can't see anyone wearing four stripes point downwards. Arent the darker colour, lower right arm, 4 stripes point upwards, overseas service chevrons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Photo 16 Forgive me, it must be my colour blindness playing up again, but I can't see anyone wearing four stripes point downwards. Arent the darker colour, lower right arm, 4 stripes point upwards, overseas service chevrons? Nothing to do with your eyesight Dai, as surely you must know - it was simply a slip by me. Of course I meant point up, as is manifest from the photograph. NB. The 4-stripe badge appeared on upper arm point down as well as lower arm point up and point down, over the course of its history. Edited 18 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said: Nothing to do with your eyesight Dai, as surely you must know - it was simply a slip by me. Of course I meant point up, as is manifest from the photograph. Phew! But they are Overseas Service chevrons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Phew! But they are Overseas Service chevrons? No, they are a badge of appointment for Acting Sergeant Major TF (and previously VF). Edited 18 November , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 November , 2022 Share Posted 18 November , 2022 Thank you FS, I see in fact they are much larger than OS stripes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 18 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2022 Photographs 18 and 19 Both captioned Inverness Copse probably 1917? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 19 November , 2022 Share Posted 19 November , 2022 Really enjoying this thread Mike, thanks for posting. What a marvellous donation to your history group. Makes me wonder how many other such treasures are lying forgotten somewhere in someone's loft, or even in some dusty corner of a junk-shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geraint Posted 19 November , 2022 Share Posted 19 November , 2022 23 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Phew! Phew - All that really confused me. The ups and downs of a chevroned sergeant what? Large double scotch please Matron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 19 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2022 6 hours ago, neverforget said: Really enjoying this thread Mike, thanks for posting. What a marvellous donation to your history group. Makes me wonder how many other such treasures are lying forgotten somewhere in someone's loft, or even in some dusty corner of a junk-shop. Thanks nevergorget there must be many more out there. Photograph 20 Just before Gallipoli Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 26 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2022 There are more photographs which I will post. They were in a google drive file in my emails and the email has disappeared? Anyway, I await another link and will upload them here when I get them. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 26 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 26 November , 2022 Quite surprised by the amount of activity in the shell battered town. Lille 1917 Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 27 November , 2022 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2022 "Pillbox " Probably Ypres 1917 Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 1 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2023 On 14/11/2022 at 18:19, Terry_Reeves said: Mike, there is a Scottish connection: https://www.facebook.com/nuneatonlocalhistorygroup/photos/gm.2237877869797381/2348228832089153/?type=3&eid=ARDKxUSylJsrGvV5yFvEwvryRwPfPyrFNuLo3QQSLpVFoaV2iGBLATHMHn8xeqADw7R_GQegTrFU7X Forget Fyves Court by the way, built in 1931. The house pictured in the link above might be worth checking. TR Someone has just been in contact to tell us the Fyves Court burned down last year. I never did hear back from the hotel. Sorry this thread has gone cold will upload all the photos soon. At the moment fighting a dreadful lurgy. Make it stop. mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipman Posted 1 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2023 A sham fight 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neverforget Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Look forward to seeing more photos when you're up for it Mike. Get well soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now